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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Teddy Eagle  13 Jan 20 1.00pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Placing some limitations on freedom of movement, so that demand and supply is kept in balance, by ensuring that those that come must either have a job offer prior to departure, or get work within a defined period has always made sense to me. Finding a way to persuade the EU to compromise on this would have been in my bucket list of things I would encourage them to reform. In any case this is, to a degree, self limiting. If people cannot find work then it's unlikely they would want to stay here, unless we offer over generous benefits to do so. How does anyone really know the extent of illegal immigration? It can only ever be an estimate. We could do more to find and remove the overstayers, if there was the political will to devote the necessary resources. Whether the cost is worth the benefit is a judgement I don't know. If people are fleeing desperate situations in their own country, or even simply as economic migrants, it would have to get a whole lot worse here before that modified their behaviour. I suspect many target the UK simply because they speak English and not either French or German and because they see us as a stepping stone to their ultimate dream destination in the USA. It might be unrealistic but I suspect that's what is in their mind. Look at the unfortunate young people from Vietnam who all died in that refrigerated truck. Sent by families, at significant cost, so they could gain a foothold in the west to remit their earnings back home. When we leave the EU I can see France losing any interest in assisting us in restricting the flow. Indeed I can see them oiling the wheels to get them shunted off their hands asap. I anticipate their attitude will be "you made the bed, now lie in it". The problem with a job offer being used as a criterion is that we would have tens of thousands more claiming to be mini-cab drivers.
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martinelliff  Staffordshire 13 Jan 20 1.45pm |
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One of the reasons the assisted program happened was that the UK was broke and there were lots of jobs in Australia. We joined the EU as the poor man of Europe in the 70s. Being a member was partly responsible for our prosperity in the 80s (that and north sea oil), we became the springbord for the US into the EU and were the financial centre of Europe and the World (almost). Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
The problem with a job offer being used as a criterion is that we would have tens of thousands more claiming to be mini-cab drivers.
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Jimenez  SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 13 Jan 20 1.49pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Mentioning racists would not be necessary unless they existed. Skin colour has nothing to do with racist attitudes, which can exist in people from every origin. Mass immigration is an emotional term thrown about as scaremongering propaganda. We have always had immigration. And migration. The levels have varied over the years. Integration has always happened, sometimes more quickly than at other times. It also results in some places being over loaded and changing character. Picking out individual examples does not prove anything other than that they are untypical examples. Patience, determination and fortitude is what is needed. Not defeatism. I have a friend who is a fellow Palace supporter, and member of HOL, who is an English professor working a University in Japan. he has lived there for many years. It's been a while since we were in touch but I will attempt to contact him and get his views on the situation there and which way it is going. The last time we spoke about this indicated they were having to review and revise their past approach. Kamikaze Eagle.....
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| W12 13 Jan 20 3.17pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Mentioning racists would not be necessary unless they existed. Skin colour has nothing to do with racist attitudes, which can exist in people from every origin. Mass immigration is an emotional term thrown about as scaremongering propaganda. We have always had immigration. And migration. The levels have varied over the years. Integration has always happened, sometimes more quickly than at other times. It also results in some places being over loaded and changing character. Picking out individual examples does not prove anything other than that they are untypical examples. Patience, determination and fortitude is what is needed. Not defeatism. That is clearly not true. We were almost entirely (99%+) white in the early fifties. Go and look at any street scene or footage back in those days and it will clearly show this. The white indigenous population (and especially the working class) have been displaced in the cities by this and anyone that has remained has to deal with high crime, the constant threat of terrorism and constant social tension. Indigenous communities have been totally eviscerated against their will. People live in fear of some of these communities and the fear of having their life ruined simply by raising concerns about what's happening. There has been no benefit to the general UK population for mass immigration either financially or socially - quite the opposite. Integration has simply not happened as governments have discouraged it. With the numbers now there is no hope of this happening. We have huge numbers of people in this country that do not identify as British and significant numbers actively working against our interests (e.g. some 23,000 known Jihadis) "Patience, determination and fortitude is what is needed. Not defeatism" - what does that mean? What we are seeing now is the instability this has created in the entire western world as differing self interest groups compete for resources and power and it will only get worse.
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| martinelliff Staffordshire 13 Jan 20 3.21pm |
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We may well have been "99%" white but due to our colonialism and asset stripping of foreign countries those crimes came home to roast when accepting migrants from those commonwealth nations. The "white" population has always been a minority in the World, unless we put up a wall like North Korea the world population will migrate economically and socially. No going back. Originally posted by W12
That is clearly not true. We were almost entirely (99%+) white in the early fifties. Go and look at any street scene or footage back in those days and it will clearly show this. The white indigenous population (and especially the working class) have been displaced in the cities by this and anyone that has remained has to deal with high crime, the constant threat of terrorism and constant social tension. Indigenous communities have been totally eviscerated against their will. People live in fear of some of these communities and the fear of having their life ruined simply by raising concerns about what's happening. There has been no benefit to the general UK population for mass immigration either financially or socially - quite the opposite. Integration has simply not happened as governments have discouraged it. With the numbers now there is no hope of this happening. We have huge numbers of people in this country that do not identify as British and significant numbers actively working against our interests (e.g. some 23,000 known Jihadis) "Patience, determination and fortitude is what is needed. Not defeatism" - what does that mean? What we are seeing now is the instability this has created in the entire western world as differing self interest groups compete for resources and power and it will only get worse.
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| Stirlingsays 13 Jan 20 3.29pm |
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Originally posted by martinelliff
One of the reasons the assisted program happened was that the UK was broke and there were lots of jobs in Australia. We joined the EU as the poor man of Europe in the 70s. Being a member was partly responsible for our prosperity in the 80s (that and north sea oil), we became the springbord for the US into the EU and were the financial centre of Europe and the World (almost). Once again, this internationalist concept that immigration is 'inevitable' and can't be resisted isn't consistent with how many other countries have successfully approached it. As stated elsewhere, Japan has a larger GDP than us and doesn't follow the 'ponzi scheme' immigration policy. The demise of nations....into what would ultimately be a what...corporatocracy? That might indeed be your wish but I suggest it's one that will ultimately leave a blood soaked legacy in Europe. The EU of the seventies offered an expansion of markets without a pooling of sovereignty. It has been the compulsion and with Thatcher the admitted mistakes of signing further treaties that increased public disquiet and concern. Also the success of the eighties can't be reduced down into 'North sea oil' and the EU....You'd have to add several other policy and directional changes. And as Labour's Shore pointed out in the seventies joining the EU completely screwed the trade balance and it's beneficial affect certainly wasn't felt by the working class. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jan 2020 3.39pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Midlands Eagle 13 Jan 20 3.30pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Surely you don't expect us to believe that
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| Stirlingsays 13 Jan 20 3.36pm |
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Originally posted by martinelliff
We may well have been "99%" white but due to our colonialism and asset stripping of foreign countries those crimes came home to roast when accepting migrants from those commonwealth nations. The "white" population has always been a minority in the World, unless we put up a wall like North Korea the world population will migrate economically and socially. No going back. Errrr....sorry, firstly I don't accept your narrative about 'white' history and secondly what has your perception of past 'crimes' got to do with 'whites' now? Are you suggesting because I'm white I have to account for the decisions made by elites from what....hundreds of years ago? That's historical and racial guilt you're pushing there. The idea that something someone's great grandfather did falls to me to pay for. Sorry mate, I was not 'born guilty'......You wear a hairshirt if you want to but keep it away from me. There's no going back for you perhaps but the consequences you have supported will and have already led nowhere good. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jan 2020 3.47pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| W12 13 Jan 20 3.39pm | |
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Originally posted by martinelliff
We may well have been "99%" white but due to our colonialism and asset stripping of foreign countries those crimes came home to roast when accepting migrants from those commonwealth nations. The "white" population has always been a minority in the World, unless we put up a wall like North Korea the world population will migrate economically and socially. No going back. OK so we are agreed that the fact we are a nation of immigrants is a nonsense. That's a start. If you are swiftly moving to the evil empire argument, if we were such a terrible empire how come we have such a good relationship with most of our former colonies? Also, how come England almost single highhandedly erased slavery in the Western world (at great expense - we have only just finished paying the debt). What about all the countries that benefited from our protection and thrived under the British Empire in terms of reducing poverty? - also the white working class that also suffered under it. The empire also changed large parts of the world from conflict to commerce. Saying the British Empire was evil is another great lie.
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| W12 13 Jan 20 3.41pm | |
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Originally posted by W12
.....and what Stirling said I actually don't give a toss what happened 100's of years ago.
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| martinelliff Staffordshire 13 Jan 20 3.54pm |
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I don't care what happened 100 years ago either, but if we had not spread ourselves across the globe like we would not have become the honeypot we are now (language, culture, etc). It is what happened. Perhaps the leaders post war should not have sent thousands to Australia and shipped in thousands from the Caribbean and other commonwealth nations, but that is what they did and we can't change that. There will always be immigration and likely most of those immigrants will be from non-EU countries. We can't stop it happening. We have a declining birth rate among the indigenous population. Those from poorer countries have a higher birth rate for their own survival, so the ratio over here will change until migrants cease to be as poor (rich people's kids don't die so much). I am not saying I like any of this either, but time moves forward, the 50s are long gone. Originally posted by W12
.....and what Stirling said I actually don't give a toss what happened 100's of years ago.
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| martinelliff Staffordshire 13 Jan 20 4.05pm |
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We don't bare the sins of our fathers, but we are living with the consequences. There is no going back for anyone, it happened. Japan got mentioned regarding immigration but no-one goes there because their language and alphabet takes years to master to even find your way round. What is the answer? The North Korean model? Shut down the outside world. Produce everything ourselves. Expel anyone not born in the UK? e.g. Wilf? Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Errrr....sorry, firstly I don't accept your narrative about 'white' history and secondly what has your perception of past 'crimes' got to do with 'whites' now? Are you suggesting because I'm white I have to account for the decisions made by elites from what....hundreds of years ago? That's historical and racial guilt you're pushing there. The idea that something someone's great grandfather did falls to me to pay for. Sorry mate, I was not 'born guilty'......You wear a hairshirt if you want to but keep it away from me. There's no going back for you perhaps but the consequences you have supported will and have already led nowhere good. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jan 2020 3.47pm)
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| Stirlingsays 13 Jan 20 6.12pm |
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Originally posted by martinelliff
We don't bare the sins of our fathers, but we are living with the consequences. There is no going back for anyone, it happened. Japan got mentioned regarding immigration but no-one goes there because their language and alphabet takes years to master to even find your way round. What is the answer? The North Korean model? Shut down the outside world. Produce everything ourselves. Expel anyone not born in the UK? e.g. Wilf? No, we aren't 'living with the consequences'. We are living with really really bad decisions voluntarily taken since WW2...There was zero compulsion....and what you originally said was definitely a 'sins of the fathers' argument and it's quite depressing that this is your view of what is just. The answer is to take the Japanese model for future immigration policy and to take the Hungary model on rewarding native births. Anyone who hasn't been born here will be subject to the same controls that operate within Japan. So a Zaha, would operate on a permit. He decided his loyalty was to Ivory Coast, that's fair enough. He's a foreign player and eventually once his work commitment is finished here he'd go back. A rich man who can be a role model in his own country. Your 'inevitability' argument isn't that at all. It's a decision to go down a path that leads to dystopia ....we are seeing it in the US and it'll be here within twenty years. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Jan 2020 6.56pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 13 Jan 20 6.21pm |
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Originally posted by martinelliff
I don't care what happened 100 years ago either, but if we had not spread ourselves across the globe like we would not have become the honeypot we are now (language, culture, etc). It is what happened. Perhaps the leaders post war should not have sent thousands to Australia and shipped in thousands from the Caribbean and other commonwealth nations, but that is what they did and we can't change that. There will always be immigration and likely most of those immigrants will be from non-EU countries. We can't stop it happening. We have a declining birth rate among the indigenous population. Those from poorer countries have a higher birth rate for their own survival, so the ratio over here will change until migrants cease to be as poor (rich people's kids don't die so much). I am not saying I like any of this either, but time moves forward, the 50s are long gone. It's not about remaking the 50s. It's about being like most of the countries around the world. It's only Europe that is doing this. Countries like Japan and Israel and in fact most of Asia have rules that protect the national ethnicity from foreign control.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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cpfc_chap  koh samui 13 Jan 20 6.50pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
It's not about remaking the 50s. It's about being like most of the countries around the world. It's only Europe that is doing this. Countries like Japan and Israel and in fact most of Asia have rules that protect the national ethnicity from foreign control. Most s.e Asian countries will not allow foreigners to do jobs which their own folk can do. Also all foreigners have to report to immigration every 30 to 90 days which is a ballache but it works!
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| martinelliff Staffordshire 13 Jan 20 6.56pm |
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Brexit in a few weeks so let's do all that. Boris has the power. p.s. Wilf has dual citizenship so would not need to leave. Originally posted by Stirlingsays
It's not about remaking the 50s. It's about being like most of the countries around the world. It's only Europe that is doing this. Countries like Japan and Israel and in fact most of Asia have rules that protect the national ethnicity from foreign control.
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