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matt_himself Matataland 20 Apr 17 3.03pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 No, it wouldn't, but if my son turns out to be gay then certainly if he was denied certain rights that the rest of us enjoy because he was gay his situation would be anything but meaningless to me. Did living in less tolerant times stop DH Lawrence, The Marquis of Bristol or Boy George having a right good gay time? I think a lot of what you post is bollocks on this subject. What has happened recently is that people get offended about stuff that doesn't affect them. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

matt_himself

Matataland 20 Apr 17 3.03pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

No, it wouldn't, but if my son turns out to be gay then certainly if he was denied certain rights that the rest of us enjoy because he was gay his situation would be anything but meaningless to me.

Did living in less tolerant times stop DH Lawrence, The Marquis of Bristol or Boy George having a right good gay time?

I think a lot of what you post is bollocks on this subject. What has happened recently is that people get offended about stuff that doesn't affect them.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 20 Apr 17 3.03pm
Originally posted by Lyons550 These groups revel in their identity and as such create a large part of the discrimination themselves as it gives them a platform to wail from. None of them want to be part of the 'normalised' population...as they wouldn't then feel precious. Spoken like someone who's never been in a group subjected to such discrimination.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 20 Apr 17 3.03pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

These groups revel in their identity and as such create a large part of the discrimination themselves as it gives them a platform to wail from. None of them want to be part of the 'normalised' population...as they wouldn't then feel precious.

Spoken like someone who's never been in a group subjected to such discrimination.

Hrolf The Ganger 20 Apr 17 3.03pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Polling day in term time shutting thousands of schools. Children's education will be ruined and what about parents with jobs? Does this set a precedent then?

Hrolf The Ganger

20 Apr 17 3.03pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Polling day in term time shutting thousands of schools. Children's education will be ruined and what about parents with jobs?

Does this set a precedent then?

Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 20 Apr 17 3.05pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Spoken like a man who knows he will be out of a job soon and will never have to deliver. So easy to be in opposition. Tough crowd. So easy to find any reason to dismiss anything presented from a premise (or person) you don't like. Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

Mr_Gristle

In the land of Whelk Eaters 20 Apr 17 3.05pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Spoken like a man who knows he will be out of a job soon and will never have to deliver. So easy to be in opposition.

Tough crowd. So easy to find any reason to dismiss anything presented from a premise (or person) you don't like.

Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

steeleye20 Croydon 20 Apr 17 3.06pm
Originally posted by Lyons550 Not a bad speech written for him there...but it's all empty rhetoric...the ideology sounds good...I'd be certainly interested in how long he would envisage it would take to see this happen as well as the cost...because in the past Labour governments have been shown time after time to spend 'now' rather than when the country can afford to do so. To implement the above properly the changes re: tax evasion etc needs to be addressed BEFORE that money should be spent. .because in the past Labour governments have been shown time after time to spend 'now' rather than when the country can afford to do so. Isn't that exactly how the economy has been run by the conservative government?

steeleye20

Croydon 20 Apr 17 3.06pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

Not a bad speech written for him there...but it's all empty rhetoric...the ideology sounds good...I'd be certainly interested in how long he would envisage it would take to see this happen as well as the cost...because in the past Labour governments have been shown time after time to spend 'now' rather than when the country can afford to do so.

To implement the above properly the changes re: tax evasion etc needs to be addressed BEFORE that money should be spent.

.because in the past Labour governments have been shown time after time to spend 'now' rather than when the country can afford to do so.

Isn't that exactly how the economy has been run by the conservative government?

Hrolf The Ganger 20 Apr 17 3.12pm
Originally posted by matt_himself Did living in less tolerant times stop DH Lawrence, The Marquis of Bristol or Boy George having a right good gay time? I think a lot of what you post is bollocks on this subject. What has happened recently is that people get offended about stuff that doesn't affect them. That much is true. I would however suggest that unlike certain culture and self interested activity, the gay 'community' really don't represent a threat or disadvantage to wider society. It is fair to say that some behavior among gay people seems unnecessarily overt and attention seeking in nature but that is in keeping with people who are a minority and have recently been afforded greater tolerance. That will diminish over time I'm suspect.

Hrolf The Ganger

20 Apr 17 3.12pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

Did living in less tolerant times stop DH Lawrence, The Marquis of Bristol or Boy George having a right good gay time?

I think a lot of what you post is bollocks on this subject. What has happened recently is that people get offended about stuff that doesn't affect them.

That much is true.
I would however suggest that unlike certain culture and self interested activity, the gay 'community' really don't represent a threat or disadvantage to wider society. It is fair to say that some behavior among gay people seems unnecessarily overt and attention seeking in nature but that is in keeping with people who are a minority and have recently been afforded greater tolerance. That will diminish over time I'm suspect.

elgrande bedford 20 Apr 17 3.13pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Polling day in term time shutting thousands of schools. Children's education will be ruined and what about parents with jobs? I take you are taking the piss always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

elgrande

bedford 20 Apr 17 3.13pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Polling day in term time shutting thousands of schools. Children's education will be ruined and what about parents with jobs?

I take you are taking the piss

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

hedgehog50 Croydon 20 Apr 17 3.17pm
Originally posted by matt_himself Did living in less tolerant times stop DH Lawrence, The Marquis of Bristol or Boy George having a right good gay time? I think a lot of what you post is bollocks on this subject. What has happened recently is that people get offended about stuff that doesn't affect them. Don't you mean T.E. rather than D.H. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

hedgehog50

Croydon 20 Apr 17 3.17pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

Did living in less tolerant times stop DH Lawrence, The Marquis of Bristol or Boy George having a right good gay time?

I think a lot of what you post is bollocks on this subject. What has happened recently is that people get offended about stuff that doesn't affect them.

Don't you mean T.E. rather than D.H.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

matt_himself Matataland 20 Apr 17 3.18pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger That much is true. I would however suggest that unlike certain culture and self interested activity, the gay 'community' really don't represent a threat or disadvantage to wider society. It is fair to say that some behavior among gay people seems unnecessarily overt and attention seeking in nature but that is in keeping with people who are a minority and have recently been afforded greater tolerance. That will diminish over time I'm suspect. I agree. I don't think gays are a threat to society. What baffles me is the lefts obsession with gay rights. I think that at he moment, if you are gay, Britain is a pretty decent place to live in. I believe that a lot of people talk about gay 'inequality' to make themselves feel superior or appear better to others. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

matt_himself

Matataland 20 Apr 17 3.18pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I agree. I don't think gays are a threat to society. What baffles me is the lefts obsession with gay rights. I think that at he moment, if you are gay, Britain is a pretty decent place to live in. I believe that a lot of people talk about gay 'inequality' to make themselves feel superior or appear better to others.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

matt_himself Matataland 20 Apr 17 3.18pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 Don't you mean T.E. rather than D.H. Yes. The one with the motorbike. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

matt_himself

Matataland 20 Apr 17 3.18pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Don't you mean T.E. rather than D.H.

Yes. The one with the motorbike.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

hedgehog50 Croydon 20 Apr 17 3.19pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Great speech from Corbyn this morning. What I like is that he says what goes in the manifesto will be fully costed. An extract, full speech here... [Link] Britain needs a Labour government that is prepared to fight for people in every part of the country, our towns, villages, as well as big cities. A Labour government that isn’t scared to take on the cosy cartels that are hoarding this country’s wealth for themselves. It needs a government that will use that wealth to invest in people’s lives in every community to build a better future for every person who lives here. Because the Conservatives, drunk on a failed ideology, are hell bent on cutting every public service they get their hands on, and they will use all of the divide-and-rule tricks of the Lynton Crosby trade to keep their rigged system intact. Don’t be angry at the privatisers profiting from our public services, they whisper, be angry instead at the migrant worker just trying to make a better life. Don’t be angry at the government ministers running down our schools and hospitals, they tell us, be angry instead at the disabled woman or the unemployed man. It is the rigged economy the Tories are protecting that Labour is committed to challenging. We will not let the elite extract wealth from the pockets of ordinary working people any longer. So many people in modern Britain do what seems like the right thing to do. They get jobs, they spend all day working hard, they save to buy their own home, they raise children, they look after elderly or sick relatives. And yet, at the end of it, they get almost nothing left over as a reward. So that will do it will it - landslide for Corbyn instead of a landslide over Corbyn. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

hedgehog50

Croydon 20 Apr 17 3.19pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Great speech from Corbyn this morning.

What I like is that he says what goes in the manifesto will be fully costed.

An extract, full speech here... [Link]

Britain needs a Labour government that is prepared to fight for people in every part of the country, our towns, villages, as well as big cities.

A Labour government that isn’t scared to take on the cosy cartels that are hoarding this country’s wealth for themselves.

It needs a government that will use that wealth to invest in people’s lives in every community to build a better future for every person who lives here.

Because the Conservatives, drunk on a failed ideology, are hell bent on cutting every public service they get their hands on, and they will use all of the divide-and-rule tricks of the Lynton Crosby trade to keep their rigged system intact.

Don’t be angry at the privatisers profiting from our public services, they whisper, be angry instead at the migrant worker just trying to make a better life.

Don’t be angry at the government ministers running down our schools and hospitals, they tell us, be angry instead at the disabled woman or the unemployed man.

It is the rigged economy the Tories are protecting that Labour is committed to challenging.

We will not let the elite extract wealth from the pockets of ordinary working people any longer.

So many people in modern Britain do what seems like the right thing to do.

They get jobs, they spend all day working hard, they save to buy their own home, they raise children, they look after elderly or sick relatives.

And yet, at the end of it, they get almost nothing left over as a reward.

So that will do it will it - landslide for Corbyn instead of a landslide over Corbyn.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 20 Apr 17 3.20pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger So this about 'race' again? This demonstrates that reductionism is alive and well everywhere. Industry is about profit. It has to recognise changing markets and new technology to achieve that goal. Sadly, the any particular work force is secondary to that end in the private sector. Am I teaching your granny to suck eggs here? It seems like it's necessary in your case. Industry has to serve society, but forcing it to become less efficient and or profitable has negative consequences. I'm all for protecting jobs or even nationalisation if the benefits to the majority can be shown to outweigh the disadvantages and not just serve a minority but we have seen that these types of arrangements are very costly to the taxpayer. If these were simple issues then they would have simple solutions. They clearly don't. Given this guy has a Nobel Prize I respect what he writes. There is nothing in that article that says technological progress should be stopped or industries propped up despite waning demand. The point is more the rhetoric from governments around jobs and industry and the lack of action in providing opportunities, and in many casing denying opportunities, to people and communities which suffer as a result of structural changes. Just because solutions aren't simple it shouldn't follow that we just wash our hands of the problem and let the market run its course. Free markets have inefficiencies!

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 20 Apr 17 3.20pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

So this about 'race' again?

This demonstrates that reductionism is alive and well everywhere.

Industry is about profit. It has to recognise changing markets and new technology to achieve that goal. Sadly, the any particular work force is secondary to that end in the private sector. Am I teaching your granny to suck eggs here? It seems like it's necessary in your case.
Industry has to serve society, but forcing it to become less efficient and or profitable has negative consequences. I'm all for protecting jobs or even nationalisation if the benefits to the majority can be shown to outweigh the disadvantages and not just serve a minority but we have seen that these types of arrangements are very costly to the taxpayer.
If these were simple issues then they would have simple solutions. They clearly don't.

Given this guy has a Nobel Prize I respect what he writes. There is nothing in that article that says technological progress should be stopped or industries propped up despite waning demand. The point is more the rhetoric from governments around jobs and industry and the lack of action in providing opportunities, and in many casing denying opportunities, to people and communities which suffer as a result of structural changes.

Just because solutions aren't simple it shouldn't follow that we just wash our hands of the problem and let the market run its course. Free markets have inefficiencies!

Hrolf The Ganger 20 Apr 17 3.21pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 .because in the past Labour governments have been shown time after time to spend 'now' rather than when the country can afford to do so. Isn't that exactly how the economy has been run by the conservative government? But aren't you from the same camp who complains about Tory cuts?

Hrolf The Ganger

20 Apr 17 3.21pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

.because in the past Labour governments have been shown time after time to spend 'now' rather than when the country can afford to do so.

Isn't that exactly how the economy has been run by the conservative government?

But aren't you from the same camp who complains about Tory cuts?

Hrolf The Ganger 20 Apr 17 3.26pm
Originally posted by matt_himself I agree. I don't think gays are a threat to society. What baffles me is the lefts obsession with gay rights. I think that at he moment, if you are gay, Britain is a pretty decent place to live in. I believe that a lot of people talk about gay 'inequality' to make themselves feel superior or appear better to others. That goes with the territory of liberal/left arrogance. As I have suggested many times, appearing to occupy the moral and intellectual high ground is more important to them than harsh reality.

Hrolf The Ganger

20 Apr 17 3.26pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

I agree. I don't think gays are a threat to society. What baffles me is the lefts obsession with gay rights. I think that at he moment, if you are gay, Britain is a pretty decent place to live in. I believe that a lot of people talk about gay 'inequality' to make themselves feel superior or appear better to others.

That goes with the territory of liberal/left arrogance.
As I have suggested many times, appearing to occupy the moral and intellectual high ground is more important to them than harsh reality.

Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 20 Apr 17 3.28pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Even if one of your siblings or children was gay? And what if they're not? Then it doesn't. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 20 Apr 17 3.28pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Even if one of your siblings or children was gay?

And what if they're not? Then it doesn't.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

Nest 20 Apr 17 3.29pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger That goes with the territory of liberal/left arrogance. As I have suggested many times, appearing to occupy the moral and intellectual high ground is more important to them than harsh reality. This is the harsh reality 19 hospitals including five major acute hospitals to be closed, 24 A&E units marked for closure 3.7 million children living in poverty over 20,000 fewer police officers, Violent crime up 22% in the 12 months to September 2016, 40% increase in reported hate crimes 910,000 UK workers on zero-hours contracts Growth in UK living standards worst in 60 years The number of people sleeping rough in England a 133% increase since 2010 over 4000 people Tory Manifesto promised no rail fare hike for passengers but this January our rail fares climbed another 2.3%. Now up 27% overall 1 in 5 adults have had mental health problems because of their housing pressures Britain's housing crisis is at its worst for 20 years Schools Crisis in England Prisons crisis flat lining wages Over 500,000 people using food banks This is tory britain today, this is Reality

Nest

20 Apr 17 3.29pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
That goes with the territory of liberal/left arrogance.
As I have suggested many times, appearing to occupy the moral and intellectual high ground is more important to them than harsh reality.

This is the harsh reality

19 hospitals including five major acute hospitals to be closed, 24 A&E units marked for closure
3.7 million children living in poverty
over 20,000 fewer police officers, Violent crime up 22% in the 12 months to September 2016, 40% increase in reported hate crimes
910,000 UK workers on zero-hours contracts
Growth in UK living standards worst in 60 years
The number of people sleeping rough in England a 133% increase since 2010 over 4000 people
Tory Manifesto promised no rail fare hike for passengers but this January our rail fares climbed another 2.3%. Now up 27% overall
1 in 5 adults have had mental health problems because of their housing pressures
Britain's housing crisis is at its worst for 20 years
Schools Crisis in England
Prisons crisis
flat lining wages
Over 500,000 people using food banks

This is tory britain today, this is Reality

matt_himself Matataland 20 Apr 17 3.30pm
Jezza is saying he is the 'anti establishment' candidate: [Link] Glad to see that he is apeing Donald Trump and UKIP by doing this. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

matt_himself

Matataland 20 Apr 17 3.30pm

Jezza is saying he is the 'anti establishment' candidate:

[Link]

Glad to see that he is apeing Donald Trump and UKIP by doing this.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 20 Apr 17 3.30pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 You don't read my posts any more Oh, I do. I just find it entertaining arguing with Gusset. Nothing personal, old chap. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 20 Apr 17 3.30pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

You don't read my posts any more

Oh, I do. I just find it entertaining arguing with Gusset. Nothing personal, old chap.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 20 Apr 17 3.31pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger That goes with the territory of liberal/left arrogance. As I have suggested many times, appearing to occupy the moral and intellectual high ground is more important to them than harsh reality. That could be said of those on the right quite easily. They ignore problems and blame others. This quote is from a book published by the OECD in 2015: "The gap between rich and poor keeps widening. Growth, if any, has disproportionally benefited higher income groups while lower income households have been left behind. This long-run increase in income inequality not only raises social and political concerns, but also economic ones. It tends to drag down GDP growth, due to the rising distance of the lower 40% from the rest of society. Lower income people have been prevented from realising their human capital potential, which is bad for the economy as a whole." Rising inequality is a direct result of right wing neo-classical ideological policies. This isn't arrogance or high ground - it's harsh reality. It's an inconvenient truth as to fix it would mean redistribution of wealth from the rich and powerful to people who don't vote for right wing parties anyway.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 20 Apr 17 3.31pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

That goes with the territory of liberal/left arrogance.
As I have suggested many times, appearing to occupy the moral and intellectual high ground is more important to them than harsh reality.

That could be said of those on the right quite easily. They ignore problems and blame others.

This quote is from a book published by the OECD in 2015:

"The gap between rich and poor keeps widening. Growth, if any, has disproportionally benefited higher income groups while lower income households have been left behind. This long-run increase in income inequality not only raises social and political concerns, but also economic ones. It tends to drag down GDP growth, due to the rising distance of the lower 40% from the rest of society. Lower income people have been prevented from realising their human capital potential, which is bad for the economy as a whole."

Rising inequality is a direct result of right wing neo-classical ideological policies. This isn't arrogance or high ground - it's harsh reality. It's an inconvenient truth as to fix it would mean redistribution of wealth from the rich and powerful to people who don't vote for right wing parties anyway.

steeleye20 Croydon 20 Apr 17 3.33pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger But aren't you from the same camp who complains about Tory cuts? Tory cuts are deliberately cruel aimed at the weak and disadvantaged. There is no economic benefit in gruelling a disabled person why they have not committed suicide. Just up your street though.

steeleye20

Croydon 20 Apr 17 3.33pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

But aren't you from the same camp who complains about Tory cuts?

Tory cuts are deliberately cruel aimed at the weak and disadvantaged.

There is no economic benefit in gruelling a disabled person why they have not committed suicide.

Just up your street though.

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