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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 11 Oct 16 5.14pm
Originally posted by OknotOK Do you mean grammar schools or private schools? Grammar schools are state selective schools. They are definitely not a tax on the wealthy. Quite the opposite as poor students make up significantly less % of pupils at grammar schools than they do at standard state schools. It ends up being an effective tax break for the wealthy as it means they don't need to send their children to private schools. There are some on the Right who obviously have less affinity with the poor than others. And there are some whose policy stances are worse for the poor than others. Where policies are obviously damaging to the poor then it isn't surprising that if imposed by an apparently rich individual the claim that they don't understand the plight of the ordinary man sticks. Edited by OknotOK (11 Oct 2016 3.07pm) I meant Grammar. Key point is used correctly. Wealthy was probably the wrong word, wealthier would have been more accurate. Essentially as Nick says, it tends to be the better off that get into a Grammar, if there was a way if combining means testing and the 11+ where the better off pay more for certain aspects of the child's education. My daughter doesn't go to a grammar school but we have to pay for things that other students don't. I am sure that there are people with the wherewithal to come up with a workable process the dignified don't even enter in the game

Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 11 Oct 16 5.14pm

Originally posted by OknotOK

Do you mean grammar schools or private schools? Grammar schools are state selective schools. They are definitely not a tax on the wealthy. Quite the opposite as poor students make up significantly less % of pupils at grammar schools than they do at standard state schools. It ends up being an effective tax break for the wealthy as it means they don't need to send their children to private schools.

There are some on the Right who obviously have less affinity with the poor than others. And there are some whose policy stances are worse for the poor than others.

Where policies are obviously damaging to the poor then it isn't surprising that if imposed by an apparently rich individual the claim that they don't understand the plight of the ordinary man sticks.

Edited by OknotOK (11 Oct 2016 3.07pm)

I meant Grammar. Key point is used correctly. Wealthy was probably the wrong word, wealthier would have been more accurate.

Essentially as Nick says, it tends to be the better off that get into a Grammar, if there was a way if combining means testing and the 11+ where the better off pay more for certain aspects of the child's education.

My daughter doesn't go to a grammar school but we have to pay for things that other students don't. I am sure that there are people with the wherewithal to come up with a workable process

the dignified don't even enter in the game

npn Crowborough 11 Oct 16 5.15pm
If they are going to do it, do it universally. I live in East Sussex, which doesn't have grammars, consequently, the only chance my kids would have would be if we moved over the border to Kent, or try to get in as a "cross-boundary" kid, which takes the pass mark required from "gifted" to "f**king genius". They may still pass, but I refuse to put them under that sort of pressure knowing they would be very likely to pass with an insufficient mark to get across the border. The fact that you CAN be tutored to pass is daft, surely there must be a way they can come up with something 'un tutorable'? Having spoken to a few young friends of ours, we've come across a couple of Oxbridge-accepted students from the local comp who turned down grammar schools on the basis that they thought it would be too much of a blow to go from top of top set to just a run-of-the-mill student.

npn

Crowborough 11 Oct 16 5.15pm

If they are going to do it, do it universally.
I live in East Sussex, which doesn't have grammars, consequently, the only chance my kids would have would be if we moved over the border to Kent, or try to get in as a "cross-boundary" kid, which takes the pass mark required from "gifted" to "f**king genius". They may still pass, but I refuse to put them under that sort of pressure knowing they would be very likely to pass with an insufficient mark to get across the border.

The fact that you CAN be tutored to pass is daft, surely there must be a way they can come up with something 'un tutorable'?

Having spoken to a few young friends of ours, we've come across a couple of Oxbridge-accepted students from the local comp who turned down grammar schools on the basis that they thought it would be too much of a blow to go from top of top set to just a run-of-the-mill student.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 5.16pm
Originally posted by chris123 I'm not talking about tutoring, I'm talking about kids of above average intelligence going to grammar school. Kids of below above average intelligence are being coached to pass the eleven +. This stops poorer socio-economic background kids of above intelligence getting in.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 5.16pm

Originally posted by chris123

I'm not talking about tutoring, I'm talking about kids of above average intelligence going to grammar school.

Kids of below above average intelligence are being coached to pass the eleven +. This stops poorer socio-economic background kids of above intelligence getting in.

chris123 hove actually 11 Oct 16 5.30pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Kids of below above average intelligence are being coached to pass the eleven +. This stops poorer socio-economic background kids of above intelligence getting in. Do you have any evidence to substantiate this?

chris123

hove actually 11 Oct 16 5.30pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Kids of below above average intelligence are being coached to pass the eleven +. This stops poorer socio-economic background kids of above intelligence getting in.

Do you have any evidence to substantiate this?

Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 11 Oct 16 5.56pm
[Link] the dignified don't even enter in the game

Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 11 Oct 16 5.56pm

[Link]

the dignified don't even enter in the game

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 6.25pm
Originally posted by chris123 Do you have any evidence to substantiate this? Only talking to grammar school teachers, attending numerous public meetings, looking at stats that sort of thing. [Link] [Link]

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 6.25pm

Originally posted by chris123

Do you have any evidence to substantiate this?

Only talking to grammar school teachers, attending numerous public meetings, looking at stats that sort of thing.

[Link]

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 6.26pm
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch [Link] Old news about the SWP, that's why I have no truck with them

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 6.26pm

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

[Link]

Old news about the SWP, that's why I have no truck with them

Hrolf The Ganger 11 Oct 16 6.52pm
Originally posted by npn If they are going to do it, do it universally. I live in East Sussex, which doesn't have grammars, consequently, the only chance my kids would have would be if we moved over the border to Kent, or try to get in as a "cross-boundary" kid, which takes the pass mark required from "gifted" to "fking genius". They may still pass, but I refuse to put them under that sort of pressure knowing they would be very likely to pass with an insufficient mark to get across the border. The fact that you CAN be tutored to pass is daft, surely there must be a way they can come up with something 'un tutorable'?** Having spoken to a few young friends of ours, we've come across a couple of Oxbridge-accepted students from the local comp who turned down grammar schools on the basis that they thought it would be too much of a blow to go from top of top set to just a run-of-the-mill student. That is what they have tried to do.

Hrolf The Ganger

11 Oct 16 6.52pm

Originally posted by npn

The fact that you CAN be tutored to pass is daft, surely there must be a way they can come up with something 'un tutorable'?

That is what they have tried to do.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 7.03pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger That is what they have tried to do. It hasn't worked. Not in Bucks anyway. [Link]

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 7.03pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

That is what they have tried to do.

It hasn't worked. Not in Bucks anyway.

[Link]

chris123 hove actually 11 Oct 16 7.06pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Only talking to grammar school teachers, attending numerous public meetings, looking at stats that sort of thing. [Link] [Link] The Guardian article seems to be about pakistani kids not getting a fair crack in Buckinghamshire - did you read it?

chris123

hove actually 11 Oct 16 7.06pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Only talking to grammar school teachers, attending numerous public meetings, looking at stats that sort of thing.

[Link]

The Guardian article seems to be about pakistani kids not getting a fair crack in Buckinghamshire - did you read it?

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 7.09pm
Originally posted by chris123 The Guardian article seems to be about pakistani kids not getting a fair crack in Buckinghamshire - did you read it? Skim read it, still kids not getting a shot though isn't it. Plenty of other stuff out there about kids not getting a fair crack. I recommend you chat with a few grammar school teachers about kids not 'good enough' for grammar school but getting in via intensive coaching. Read somewhere that the tutor industry is worth over £1.5 billion. Edited by nickgusset (11 Oct 2016 7.12pm)

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 7.09pm

Originally posted by chris123

The Guardian article seems to be about pakistani kids not getting a fair crack in Buckinghamshire - did you read it?

Skim read it, still kids not getting a shot though isn't it.

Plenty of other stuff out there about kids not getting a fair crack.

I recommend you chat with a few grammar school teachers about kids not 'good enough' for grammar school but getting in via intensive coaching.

Read somewhere that the tutor industry is worth over £1.5 billion.

Edited by nickgusset (11 Oct 2016 7.12pm)

chris123 hove actually 11 Oct 16 7.31pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Skim read it, still kids not getting a shot though isn't it. Plenty of other stuff out there about kids not getting a fair crack. I recommend you chat with a few grammar school teachers about kids not 'good enough' for grammar school but getting in via intensive coaching. Read somewhere that the tutor industry is worth over £1.5 billion. Edited by nickgusset (11 Oct 2016 7.12pm) There are 160 odd Grammars with 167,000 pupils - so 3% is about 5,000 kids - out of how many in all forms of secondary education, I don't know. I'm just not persuaded yet that free meals is the indicator you think it is.

chris123

hove actually 11 Oct 16 7.31pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Skim read it, still kids not getting a shot though isn't it.

Plenty of other stuff out there about kids not getting a fair crack.

I recommend you chat with a few grammar school teachers about kids not 'good enough' for grammar school but getting in via intensive coaching.

Read somewhere that the tutor industry is worth over £1.5 billion.

Edited by nickgusset (11 Oct 2016 7.12pm)

There are 160 odd Grammars with 167,000 pupils - so 3% is about 5,000 kids - out of how many in all forms of secondary education, I don't know. I'm just not persuaded yet that free meals is the indicator you think it is.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 7.34pm
Originally posted by chris123 There are 160 odd Grammars with 167,000 pupils - so 3% is about 5,000 kids - out of how many in all forms of secondary education, I don't know. I'm just not persuaded yet that free meals is the indicator you think it is. It's an indicator used by government. I'm not sure where you are going with this? I know that poorer kids have less chance of getting into grammar schools. Ate you saying they don't?

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 7.34pm

Originally posted by chris123

It's an indicator used by government.

I'm not sure where you are going with this?
I know that poorer kids have less chance of getting into grammar schools. Ate you saying they don't?

chris123 hove actually 11 Oct 16 7.49pm
Originally posted by nickgusset It's an indicator used by government. I'm not sure where you are going with this? I know that poorer kids have less chance of getting into grammar schools. Ate you saying they don't? That faux measures may obscure more fundamental issues - like the alternative is so good that it doesn't matter if you kid doesn't get in, you don't want them to sit or you don't live in the catchment area. And I am interested, I remember talking to the head at Trinity years ago - he had formerly been head at Wilsons and he said it was easier to get into Trinity.

chris123

hove actually 11 Oct 16 7.49pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

It's an indicator used by government.

I'm not sure where you are going with this?
I know that poorer kids have less chance of getting into grammar schools. Ate you saying they don't?

That faux measures may obscure more fundamental issues - like the alternative is so good that it doesn't matter if you kid doesn't get in, you don't want them to sit or you don't live in the catchment area.

And I am interested, I remember talking to the head at Trinity years ago - he had formerly been head at Wilsons and he said it was easier to get into Trinity.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 8.08pm
Originally posted by chris123 That faux measures may obscure more fundamental issues - like the alternative is so good that it doesn't matter if you kid doesn't get in, you don't want them to sit or you don't live in the catchment area. And I am interested, I remember talking to the head at Trinity years ago - he had formerly been head at Wilsons and he said it was easier to get into Trinity. The fact is that every school should be good, that's what we should be aiming for. Unfortunately as each day goes by, with what's being done to the education system, it seems more and more of a pipe dream.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 8.08pm

Originally posted by chris123

And I am interested, I remember talking to the head at Trinity years ago - he had formerly been head at Wilsons and he said it was easier to get into Trinity.

The fact is that every school should be good, that's what we should be aiming for. Unfortunately as each day goes by, with what's being done to the education system, it seems more and more of a pipe dream.

Hrolf The Ganger 11 Oct 16 9.13pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Skim read it, still kids not getting a shot though isn't it. Plenty of other stuff out there about kids not getting a fair crack. I recommend you chat with a few grammar school teachers about kids not 'good enough' for grammar school but getting in via intensive coaching. Read somewhere that the tutor industry is worth over £1.5 billion. Edited by nickgusset (11 Oct 2016 7.12pm) This is where you show supreme naivety. People will always seek to gain advantage in what ever system you employ. There is nothing new about that. I asked my son about your theory and he did not recognise that problem at the school he went to.

Hrolf The Ganger

11 Oct 16 9.13pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Skim read it, still kids not getting a shot though isn't it.

Plenty of other stuff out there about kids not getting a fair crack.

I recommend you chat with a few grammar school teachers about kids not 'good enough' for grammar school but getting in via intensive coaching.

Read somewhere that the tutor industry is worth over £1.5 billion.

Edited by nickgusset (11 Oct 2016 7.12pm)

This is where you show supreme naivety. People will always seek to gain advantage in what ever system you employ. There is nothing new about that.

I asked my son about your theory and he did not recognise that problem at the school he went to.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 9.30pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger This is where you show supreme naivety. People will always seek to gain advantage in what ever system you employ. There is nothing new about that. I asked my son about your theory and he did not recognise that problem at the school he went to. Another it is what it is put up with it type response from you there. Yes people will always try and take advantage but that doesn't mean you shouldn't look for other, better ways.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 9.30pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

This is where you show supreme naivety. People will always seek to gain advantage in what ever system you employ. There is nothing new about that.

I asked my son about your theory and he did not recognise that problem at the school he went to.

Another it is what it is put up with it type response from you there. Yes people will always try and take advantage but that doesn't mean you shouldn't look for other, better ways.

Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 11 Oct 16 9.55pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Skim read it, still kids not getting a shot though isn't it. Plenty of other stuff out there about kids not getting a fair crack. I recommend you chat with a few grammar school teachers about kids not 'good enough' for grammar school but getting in via intensive coaching. Read somewhere that the tutor industry is worth over £1.5 billion. Edited by nickgusset (11 Oct 2016 7.12pm) Tutors and tutoring to pass the nary exam are two different things. My daughter has always struggled with maths and we have periodically used tutors. Some of her friends have had them too for a variety of subjects. Only one was pre entrance exam. the dignified don't even enter in the game

Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 11 Oct 16 9.55pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Skim read it, still kids not getting a shot though isn't it.

Plenty of other stuff out there about kids not getting a fair crack.

I recommend you chat with a few grammar school teachers about kids not 'good enough' for grammar school but getting in via intensive coaching.

Read somewhere that the tutor industry is worth over £1.5 billion.

Edited by nickgusset (11 Oct 2016 7.12pm)

Tutors and tutoring to pass the nary exam are two different things. My daughter has always struggled with maths and we have periodically used tutors. Some of her friends have had them too for a variety of subjects. Only one was pre entrance exam.

the dignified don't even enter in the game

Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 11 Oct 16 9.58pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Skim read it, still kids not getting a shot though isn't it. Plenty of other stuff out there about kids not getting a fair crack. I recommend you chat with a few grammar school teachers about kids not 'good enough' for grammar school but getting in via intensive coaching. Read somewhere that the tutor industry is worth over £1.5 billion. Edited by nickgusset (11 Oct 2016 7.12pm) The 3% on free dinners, how does that compare to the national average? the dignified don't even enter in the game

Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 11 Oct 16 9.58pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Skim read it, still kids not getting a shot though isn't it.

Plenty of other stuff out there about kids not getting a fair crack.

I recommend you chat with a few grammar school teachers about kids not 'good enough' for grammar school but getting in via intensive coaching.

Read somewhere that the tutor industry is worth over £1.5 billion.

Edited by nickgusset (11 Oct 2016 7.12pm)

The 3% on free dinners, how does that compare to the national average?

the dignified don't even enter in the game

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 9.58pm
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch Tutors and tutoring to pass the nary exam are two different things. My daughter has always struggled with maths and we have periodically used tutors. Some of her friends have had them too for a variety of subjects. Only one was pre entrance exam. I thought about home tutoring to earn extra cash. Over 90percent of potential work was for 11+. Obviously being in Kent this figure is a lot higher than elsewhere.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 11 Oct 16 9.58pm

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

I thought about home tutoring to earn extra cash. Over 90percent of potential work was for 11+. Obviously being in Kent this figure is a lot higher than elsewhere.

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