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General Election 2017


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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 20 Apr 17 4.36pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I think it really depends on how you spend the money and the opportunities you create. Social programs have to be directive towards resolving the issues that perpetuate poverty and restrict opportunities, even if its just focused on providing a route out for those who want to take advantage of the chances of a better life.

Turns out, that really isn't the case. Labour has responded by giving money to people, and Conservatives by cutting public services and spending.

Like grammar schools you mean.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

Lyons550 Flag Shirley 20 Apr 17 4.37pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle


Given this guy has a Nobel Prize I respect what he writes. There is nothing in that article that says technological progress should be stopped or industries propped up despite waning demand. The point is more the rhetoric from governments around jobs and industry and the lack of action in providing opportunities, and in many casing denying opportunities, to people and communities which suffer as a result of structural changes.

Just because solutions aren't simple it shouldn't follow that we just wash our hands of the problem and let the market run its course. Free markets have inefficiencies!

Completely agree with this...I'd certainly like to see far more emphasis on apprenticeships for school leavers and a more joined up approach between businesses and colleges/schools in doing so.

Who remembers having a careers advisor at their school when they hit 5th year? Mine was bloody useless and essentially told me I should look to be a footballer instead!

 


The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 4.40pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Didn't I answer this post already?

The left don't seem to be able to clarify their position.
The complain about cuts and then complain about the defect.
They complain about living standards but support mass immigration and the suppression of wages that it creates.
They complain about the NHS but have never once solved the crisis in all their years in office.
They complain about housing but the Wilson Government built some of the worst housing ever created and Labour had years in government under Blair and Brown to address it, they didn't. What they did do was open the flood gates for thousands of Eastern European immigrants to make the problem much worse.

Wake up.

I'm not sure what you've found unclear in the stance of "the left". At no point have I complained personally about the deficit itself, but actually about using the deficit as an excuse for ideological cuts and targeting cuts on those least able to cope and those least likely to vote Tory. The deficit will actually get worse, and has done, as a result of the austerity we've seen for the last 7 years.

I've previously mentioned that immigration, particularly from the EU, has resulted in net economic benefits. Standards of living are much more heavily impacted by low levels of productivity, inequality and government economic policy. If you believe low wages are a problem then why not advocate an appropriate living wage set by law? Or perhaps better funded and better targeted education and training? Immigration has also done a lot more in terms of filling skills gaps and shortages than increasing a huge oversupply of labour. Why is it some sort of universal truth that an immigrant would work for less than a native person? Their living costs would be the same if not more as they are less able to live with family and more likely to have dependants.

Housing issues have been ignored by successive governments. It's no preserve of the left. What floodgates are these that Blair and Brown opened? We've been a member of the EU since Heath. Transitional arrangement for new members could only ever be transitional!

 

Lyons550 Flag Shirley 20 Apr 17 4.43pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

It proves that between 1997 and 2010 the government increased spending on NHS in real terms to address chronic underfunding. Since 2010 the Tories have cut spending in real terms despite a desperate need for increases in funding.

The problem is they spent it in the wrong areas...instead of nurses and doctors it was spent on Admin and middle management...there's a shyteload of wastage still in the sector...its just the people making the decisions are looking after themselves at the cost of the real requirements such as frontline staff.

 


The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Nest Flag 20 Apr 17 4.44pm

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 4.45pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

That only matters if you can show that people have actually become worse off as a result.
Can you do this?
As to how much richer we could be, that is a good question.
A better question would be how rich would we need to be to satisfy the Left?
I suspect that all the time someone was richer than another they would find fault with society.
If we could equalise wealth without damaging the mechanisms that allow commerce to function effectively and allow for the society we have then I would be interested to see it. What we have is a political system that supports corporate interests and no party will alter that situation in my view. Much as I object to corporate interference and over influence in government, we must be careful what we wish for.

Yes, just go around parts of the north-east and see for yourself.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 4.46pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

If we had carried on like we were before Thatcher we would now be far worse off.

At what point has anyone advocated that?

 

jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 20 Apr 17 4.48pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

No. It shows that Labour spent money we did not have in order to fund an ever increasing demand for health care.

That cannot be a long term solution and you know it.

Hasn't government spending increased, along with the deficit under the Coalition and Conservative governments though, which is arguably spending money they don't have, to fund a country: all despite austerity

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 4.49pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

No. It shows that Labour spent money we did not have in order to fund an ever increasing demand for health care.

That cannot be a long term solution and you know it.

Given I have some understanding of Economics I actually don't know that. The fundamental misunderstanding you make is that a government like that of the UK can spend money "we don't have". We're not Greece, nor could we become them. We have as much money as we want as we control our own monetary policy.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 4.51pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Hasn't government spending increased, along with the deficit under the Coalition and Conservative governments though, which is arguably spending money they don't have, to fund a country: all despite austerity

That's incorrect. It's gone down quite a lot.

Also see my previous point regarding "money we don't have".

Government Spending.PNG Attachment: Government Spending.PNG (127.41Kb)

 

jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 20 Apr 17 4.56pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Like grammar schools you mean.

Not quite, as grammar schools intake were based on academic success, not potential. In order to truly take advantage of the prospects of grammar schools you need to ensure that everyone has access to a suitable education to qualify and deal with the issues that plague inner city schools.

You actually have to engage with the issues within poor and impoverished areas, that impact childrens education - Including school programs in low attainment schools aimed at getting 'the best out of the average' as well.

The problem of grammar schools was the high funding of the grammar schools and the relative abandoning of the comprehensives / secondary modern. Both have to have a very active focus and means of achievement of opportunity.

The average kids need skills, jobs and life chances too.

Its not just about excellence, it has to be about producing functional adults out of broken areas.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 20 Apr 17 4.59pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

That's incorrect. It's gone down quite a lot.

Also see my previous point regarding "money we don't have".

I don't understand economics - so I'm going on reports and stories about the deficit increasing, even if spending is down.

I quite agree however, that if the public want an well funded health service, then they also have to pay for it with tax and national insurance.

I just happen to believe that things like Education and the Health Service, represent a very reasonable return of tax to the public and should be the priority.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 20 Apr 17 5.01pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Yes, just go around parts of the north-east and see for yourself.

A bit selective isn't it?

There is an issue with the demise from coal mining and other industry but times change. People have to adapt. Either themselves or their children.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 5.06pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

A bit selective isn't it?

There is an issue with the demise from coal mining and other industry but times change. People have to adapt. Either themselves or their children.

And recycle my point about lack of provision of any help from the state in the form of training/education/investment.

 

Nest Flag 20 Apr 17 5.07pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

A bit selective isn't it?

There is an issue with the demise from coal mining and other industry but times change. People have to adapt. Either themselves or their children.

Adapting without opportunity

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 5.08pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I don't understand economics - so I'm going on reports and stories about the deficit increasing, even if spending is down.

I quite agree however, that if the public want an well funded health service, then they also have to pay for it with tax and national insurance.

I just happen to believe that things like Education and the Health Service, represent a very reasonable return of tax to the public and should be the priority.

Spending is only one half of the deficit. Government revenue is the other - which has suffered from tax cuts and stagnating and often reduced wages of lower and middle earners who pay most of the total tax.

The government could also use QE to invest in education and health... But they don't.

 

davenotamonkey Flag 20 Apr 17 5.09pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

Jezza is saying he is the 'anti establishment' candidate:

[Link]

Glad to see that he is apeing Donald Trump and UKIP by doing this.

So "anti-establishment" he's parachuting his son into a safe Labour seat. Lol.

 

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 20 Apr 17 5.09pm

I do think the regions should be devolved and have meaningful powers.

 

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 20 Apr 17 5.13pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Given I have some understanding of Economics I actually don't know that. The fundamental misunderstanding you make is that a government like that of the UK can spend money "we don't have". We're not Greece, nor could we become them. We have as much money as we want as we control our own monetary policy.

So what is the deficit?

More importantly, it is not realistic to throw money at an ever increasing problem involving a highly inefficient organisation.
The use of temporary emergency staff for example must be addressed.
You can argue about what percentage of GDP we can spend but ultimately tax or NI would have to rise. That would be acceptable if demand for health care did not continually increase. With current rates of population increase and life expectancy that is not happening any time in the coming century.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 5.23pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

So what is the deficit?

More importantly, it is not realistic to throw money at an ever increasing problem involving a highly inefficient organisation.
The use of temporary emergency staff for example must be addressed.
You can argue about what percentage of GDP we can spend but ultimately tax or NI would have to rise. That would be acceptable if demand for health care did not continually increase. With current rates of population increase and life expectancy that is not happening any time in the coming century.

Deficit only relates to fiscal policy. Governments have more than one macroeconomic tool available!

 

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