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Rugby world cup 2015

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View The Sash's Profile The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 29 Sep 15 9.17pm Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

Quote dannyh at 29 Sep 2015 1.45pm

All you egg chasers have far more in depth tactical Knowledge than me, I am a football player that occasionally plays rugby, knows the rules, and can have a good game at second row.

However all the flack Lancaster is getting seems a bit unfair.

Look at it from a football view point and you may get what I'm saying, Pardew makes some iffy subs at times (Mutch for Wilf, leaving Jedi out, playing Yannick up top instead of Gayle etc etc. And yet Pards get no s*** what so ever, because in the main he has been brilliant for Palace.

In the main Lancaster has been brilliant for England, I know the subs he made were "odd" but he must've done it for a reason, if I remember rightly Wales had already started turning the screw before he made the changes.

As for the Kick at goal that never was to suggest that is Lancasters fault is plain daft, he was miles away in seats, Rob Shaw was on the pitch and it was his choice, at that minute in time it was his choice, he needed to make a comand decision and he f***ed it up.

He kicks for goal, we maybe get three points but whatever the Welsh have to kick back to us and a draw was a very likely result with that much time left.

You can prepare the players as best you can, but when they cross the line of chalk you can do no more, look at that dick that took the penalty from Gareth Barry and then smashed it at the keeper ?

I know there was more to the game and Englands failure than one descion by Rob Shaw, but that was the catalyst for Wales to win. Do you really think Lancasters advice with minutes left on the clock, with a kickable penalty, level on points, would be to go for a set peice ?????? I think not

The Captain has to take this one.


Its not just this game though that's the thing danny...

 


As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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Hoof Hearted 30 Sep 15 11.02am

I think all this doom and gloom is a bit premature.

Let's play the Aussies... and if we get stuffed, let's pile into the Coach, Players, Tactics, Paloma Faith's version of "World In Union" etc etc.

Till then, I for one will be firmly supporting our cause and being optimistic.

 

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View sydtheeagle's Profile sydtheeagle Flag England 30 Sep 15 11.34am Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

For those who wondering why Burgess was such a disaster, there's a superb article by the Ireland centre Gordon D'Arcy in the Irish Times, Full article here: [Link] and part of it copied below:

I only started playing centre in 2004. It took until the 2007 World Cup before I felt properly attuned to the nuances of the position and comfortable playing Test matches in the 12 jersey.

Sonny Bill Williams had a daily tutorial from Tana Umaga – one the greatest centres ever – for two years at Toulon before returning to New Zealand and winning his first cap.

It’s simply not possible for him to be ready. And now we have proof.

Burgess lacks the sense of timing, in attack and defence, required to be effective at international level. His naivety embarrassed those around him and severely damaged England’s chances of reaching the quarter-finals.

Stuart Lancaster picked a league convert who doesn’t know how to play inside centre for the biggest match England have played since the 2007 World Cup final. To compound the problem, Brad Barritt was out of position at 13 and exposed accordingly when it mattered most.

Timing is everything at the elite end of centre play. I quickly realised it was my only way of surviving those European or Six Nations games. I wasn’t big enough to dominate tackles so my entry into the line had to be perfect. I was always trying to avoid a collision and attack an inside shoulder.

I think, for now, Burgess can only be effective alongside Bath team-mate George Ford as they have developed some form of understanding before George’s dad, Mike, shifted Burgess into the backrow.

By picking Owen Farrell, Burgess and Barritt, England didn’t come to Twickenham to play rugby. We all knew this. For Jonny May’s try – which I will examine in detail – both centres ran straight as decoys.

Burgess never got to the pace against Wales. He clearly bust a gut but effort and strength were never going to be enough. Barritt was arguably worse and badly exposed for the Gareth Davies try.

By then the Burgess experiment had been abandoned because the England coaching team accepted, long after everyone else, that he had no idea what was happening around him.

This is the flip side of last week’s column; when attacking from centre, you must catch the ball as flat as possible and the best centres always shift direction at that very moment.

Jean De Villiers is (or, sadly, was) the master of this. Ma’a Nonu is absolutely phenomenal.

All Burgess did was run straight in search of collisions with Jamie Roberts (who obliged but really conned him most of the time).

When Burgess played in the NRL he was so effective because everything was pre-ordained. There is no ruck so he timed the run off the scrumhalf and could get up a 10-metre head of steam and thunder into a player of his choosing. In rugby union there are more variables – rucks, pick-and-goes, the advantage rule – so he only gets three or four metres, and one wrong step forces a break in stride that makes him easier to stop.

His skill-set hasn’t transferred to the position he is playing. Again, it takes time.

England didn’t even put him in the back field to counter kicks, like they do Billy Vunipola and Ben Morgan.

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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View sydtheeagle's Profile sydtheeagle Flag England 30 Sep 15 12.07pm Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Good analysis in the Independent too:

We’re talking in the last instance of Sam Burgess, whose skill set does not begin to meet the demands of the role at international level. Yes, he tackled hard – brutally hard at times. Yes, he carried the ball strongly, if no more productively than a dozen other inside centres in this tournament. But he gives no shape to the midfield attack, appears barely capable of playing the kind of part his opposite number Jamie Roberts performed in the build-up to the brilliant try scored by Gareth Davies after 70 minutes, and cannot kick for love nor money. He tried it twice and reduced the crowd to tears in the process. Tears of misery in the case of the England supporters, tears of laughter in the case of the red-shirted hordes from west of the Severn.

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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View The Sash's Profile The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 30 Sep 15 12.13pm Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

It seems unfair to lump all this on Burgess but its all accurate - complete lack of experience which even undiscovered tribes in the Amazon knew would be exposed and therefore the fingers should be firmly pointing into the stands at the management team who selected him rather than the man himself.

 


As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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View sydtheeagle's Profile sydtheeagle Flag England 30 Sep 15 3.55pm Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Quote The Sash at 30 Sep 2015 12.13pm

It seems unfair to lump all this on Burgess but its all accurate - complete lack of experience which even undiscovered tribes in the Amazon knew would be exposed and therefore the fingers should be firmly pointing into the stands at the management team who selected him rather than the man himself.

I think what seems increasingly clear isn't that Burgess shouldn't have been in the team on Saturday but that he shouldn't have been in the squad. The plain truth is, based on the past four years, Burrell and Joseph should have been the starting pair for the RWC, with Burrell and Slade once Joseph got injured. How Burrell, who has given Wales a handful more than once lately, was simply dropped altogether for no apparent reason for someone who's not even a rugby (Union) player really beggars belief.

I can think of only two reasons. First, Bomber is plain and simple incompetent (or once again he let Farrell over-ride him, which is another form of incompetent) or second, the RFU men who picked up the tab for Burgess' transfer from League simply told Lancaster to put him in the squad to save face. The latter seems to me both harder to believe and more likely.

Even so, even if the latter was the case, Bomber should have played him in his club position (or, better yet, had him in the squad but not played him at all). It is seriously hard to believe any rugby professional on any level would have thought playing him at 12 was sensible. England were effectively playing with 14 men.

While the point about "chin up and get behind the team" is well taken, this really has been a disastrous campaign so far and we are far, far short of the mark. I hope somehow things turn around, but the truth is that it is very hard to see how they will. Ultimately, we lost on Saturday because we aren't very good right now. We're missing key players (Hartley, Joseph, Tuilagi) that we can't afford to miss and the drop off in quality to their replacements shows only how little real depth we have, compounded by a coach who makes poor selections.

Our lineout is dysfunctional with our best hooker (and arguably most influential player, Hartley) suspended (although he's not suspended anymore. He could be called up.) We are starting a hard-working but truthfully very average lock (Parling) solely because he can call line-outs and Lancaster doesn't trust anyone else to do the job. Despite this, our lineouts have been a disaster area. We don't have an openside; possibly the most important position in the modern game other than out-half. Any way you cut it. both Wood and Robs***e are blindsides by training and either pales by comparison with McCaw, Pocock, etc.

We have a very promising 10 but he is inexperienced and we don't play him in big games anyway. We don't have a 12 at all (the less said about Barritt the better) and our strength -- the back 3 -- rarely see the ball because our midfield isn't creative. Grunt is not going to win in the modern game.

If I am honest, I expect Australia to beat us, probably more easily than Wales did, on Saturday night. I desperately hope I'm wrong but their tight five is vastly improved over previous versions, their flankers are world class, and in the back division they are spoiled for choice. The best thing you can say about English rugby right now is we have a very, very good generation coming through. We might win the World Cup...in Japan next time around.

My fear for Saturday is that Lancaster is going to go even further into his shell, draw the predictable but wrong conclusion that the game will be won up front (thereby underestimating the Australian pack) and go back to route one in the backs. I don't think that will work. For me, he has to start Ford and Slade, he's got to get Wigglesworth a long way from the bench and he has to go down playing rugby. I think we play to our potential -- which still might not be enough to win -- then we can give Australia a game and have at least a shot. If we set up like we did against Wales, it will not only be over but ugly.

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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View The Sash's Profile The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 01 Oct 15 10.02am Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

Quote sydtheeagle at 30 Sep 2015 3.55pm

Quote The Sash at 30 Sep 2015 12.13pm

It seems unfair to lump all this on Burgess but its all accurate - complete lack of experience which even undiscovered tribes in the Amazon knew would be exposed and therefore the fingers should be firmly pointing into the stands at the management team who selected him rather than the man himself.

I think what seems increasingly clear isn't that Burgess shouldn't have been in the team on Saturday but that he shouldn't have been in the squad. The plain truth is, based on the past four years, Burrell and Joseph should have been the starting pair for the RWC, with Burrell and Slade once Joseph got injured. How Burrell, who has given Wales a handful more than once lately, was simply dropped altogether for no apparent reason for someone who's not even a rugby (Union) player really beggars belief.

I can think of only two reasons. First, Bomber is plain and simple incompetent (or once again he let Farrell over-ride him, which is another form of incompetent) or second, the RFU men who picked up the tab for Burgess' transfer from League simply told Lancaster to put him in the squad to save face. The latter seems to me both harder to believe and more likely.

Even so, even if the latter was the case, Bomber should have played him in his club position (or, better yet, had him in the squad but not played him at all). It is seriously hard to believe any rugby professional on any level would have thought playing him at 12 was sensible. England were effectively playing with 14 men.

While the point about "chin up and get behind the team" is well taken, this really has been a disastrous campaign so far and we are far, far short of the mark. I hope somehow things turn around, but the truth is that it is very hard to see how they will. Ultimately, we lost on Saturday because we aren't very good right now. We're missing key players (Hartley, Joseph, Tuilagi) that we can't afford to miss and the drop off in quality to their replacements shows only how little real depth we have, compounded by a coach who makes poor selections.

Our lineout is dysfunctional with our best hooker (and arguably most influential player, Hartley) suspended (although he's not suspended anymore. He could be called up.) We are starting a hard-working but truthfully very average lock (Parling) solely because he can call line-outs and Lancaster doesn't trust anyone else to do the job. Despite this, our lineouts have been a disaster area. We don't have an openside; possibly the most important position in the modern game other than out-half. Any way you cut it. both Wood and Robs***e are blindsides by training and either pales by comparison with McCaw, Pocock, etc.

We have a very promising 10 but he is inexperienced and we don't play him in big games anyway. We don't have a 12 at all (the less said about Barritt the better) and our strength -- the back 3 -- rarely see the ball because our midfield isn't creative. Grunt is not going to win in the modern game.

If I am honest, I expect Australia to beat us, probably more easily than Wales did, on Saturday night. I desperately hope I'm wrong but their tight five is vastly improved over previous versions, their flankers are world class, and in the back division they are spoiled for choice. The best thing you can say about English rugby right now is we have a very, very good generation coming through. We might win the World Cup...in Japan next time around.

My fear for Saturday is that Lancaster is going to go even further into his shell, draw the predictable but wrong conclusion that the game will be won up front (thereby underestimating the Australian pack) and go back to route one in the backs. I don't think that will work. For me, he has to start Ford and Slade, he's got to get Wigglesworth a long way from the bench and he has to go down playing rugby. I think we play to our potential -- which still might not be enough to win -- then we can give Australia a game and have at least a shot. If we set up like we did against Wales, it will not only be over but ugly.


Yep...

If, and its a big if, we have it in the locker to beat Australia then it will be a huge papering over cracks exercise.

I think people had doubts when this squad was announced and most papers even did a non selected XV which in some areas was way stronger than the selection.


Said it before on here but I simply don't understand the Burrell omission - it makes absolutely no sense at all. Its not like Sam Burgess came in and lit the place up either. I am not convinced by Slade purely from an experience perspective so for that you have to stick with BB but in his preferred position - or possibly play Ford with Farrell moving across.

I agree about the talent pool - we do haver a really good mix of younger players and experience that if blended right could be a very good side - for me Lancaster isn't the man to do that


Edited by The Sash (01 Oct 2015 10.13am)

 


As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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Hoof Hearted 01 Oct 15 10.09am

Anyway....... come on Fiji..... punch above your weight and help us today against Wales.....

 

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View The Sash's Profile The Sash Flag Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 01 Oct 15 10.14am Send a Private Message to The Sash Add The Sash as a friend

Quote Hoof Hearted at 01 Oct 2015 10.09am

Anyway....... come on Fiji..... punch above your weight and help us today against Wales.....

...or at least injure another 5 or 6 for the Welsh boys game against the Aussies


 


As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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View sydtheeagle's Profile sydtheeagle Flag England 01 Oct 15 10.15am Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Quote Hoof Hearted at 01 Oct 2015 10.09am

Anyway....... come on Fiji..... punch above your weight and help us today against Wales.....

Can't wait. Should be a wonderful game. Unfortunately (from a purely English viewpoint), I still think Wales will get a BP win. Fiji are being talked up quite a bit and, while they have their threats, I think the pudding has been a little over-egged with regard to their quality.

 


Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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View sxp55's Profile sxp55 Flag South Norwood 01 Oct 15 10.16am Send a Private Message to sxp55 Add sxp55 as a friend

Think Fiji go close today. Got a feeling about that.

With regards to Burgess, its a complete joke that he's the scapegoat. This lies with the coach who picked him. I just do not understand how lancaster thought it would be a good idea.

The end of the day I blame two people - the coach and the captain.

As guscott said, if we had kicked and missed, we would have still got the ball back! complete heads gone from Robshaw

 


@sxp55555

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Hoof Hearted 01 Oct 15 10.23am

Quote The Sash at 01 Oct 2015 10.14am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 01 Oct 2015 10.09am

Anyway....... come on Fiji..... punch above your weight and help us today against Wales.....

...or at least injure another 5 or 6 for the Welsh boys game against the Aussies



That's just nasty Sash.......

 

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