The methods utilised by any parents to get their kids into the best schools is always going to be a factor surely?

House prices preclude the poorer parents who can't afford to move to the catchment area of the most successful schools.

So what if some parents pay for additional teaching to aid their kid's chances of passing the 11+ ?

Darwin refers to it as Natural Selection or Survival of the fittest.

I failed my 11+ in 1965 because I was more interested in football and my Dad was a milkman living in a council house and obviously couldn't or wouldn't pay extra for my schooling.

I ended up going to an all boys secondary modern school, but I got 8 O Levels and " A's in Pure Maths and Applied Maths, and was offered 2 places at Uni.

Hardly an indictment of the failure of the grammar school system in my experience?

It's a fair criticism of the current system. But the solution to that shouldn't be something that has been proven to make it even worse?

"It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

I went to a grammar school by passing the 11+. My father was a bricklayer and we lived in a 2 up 2 down terraced house in a working class street. Tutoring? We had two books in our house, the Bible and a boxing encyclopaedia. Look how well I turned out!

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

There will always be exceptions in every story. And like I said I understand why parents would want their kids to attend grammar schools. The question was asked why Corbyn was opposing it. The answer is because some individuals will benefit, but the majority (and particularly the majority of the poor) will not. So I think he is right to do so.

Realising I am opening myself up to hypocrisy charges, I benefited from something similar. My dad was a truck driver and picking potatoes when they had to chose schools. I passed entrance exams and got into a posh private school in Edinburgh and then Croydon on scholarships.

It was good for me. Doesn't mean it is good for society as a whole.

"It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

Of course the system was not perfect, but it gave kids like me a good education after being selected on merit. Meanwhile the champions of comprehensives only, like Diane Abbott, send their kids to private schools.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

I don't know what the popularity of grammar schools in the country. There is probably polling out there but it doesn't really matter.

What would change my mind would be statistical evidence that it improves social mobility. And that simply doesn't exist.

"It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

My son wasn't tutored. When he was in year 4 I asked his teacher outright what she felt his chances were of passing it. At that point it stood at 50/50 . The exam favours those who are maths and science minded . I couldn't really afford a tutor at £25 an hour every week. If she had felt he had more chance of passing then I would have made a sacrifice somewhere to scrape the money together to pay for one but I had a decision to make.
I can say with all confidence that no amount of driving a flash car, owning instead of renting my property, his father being a city worker rather than a window fitter or any amount of tutoring would have made a hot of difference. He would not have passed that exam and I stand by that. He would struggle in a grammar school and be in all the bottom classes. I will repeat if any of my other children pass that's where they are going. They will get a better education at grammar school.

I had extensive experience of it last year with friends . Many had tutored their children to the hilt. Yes you could call them middle class. Homeowners, multiple car white collar workers in the main. A lot of them failed and it came as a bigger shock to the parents. Call me cruel but it was quite a site to behold. The automatic assumption of the monied that they could chuck cash at something and buy their child a better education.

Same thing happened this year. I watched all this unfold once again with my own child in the middle of it. Multiple teachers including some on here have quite clearly stated that tutored and coached children who pass often struggle. It is better if they have a natural aptitude for it. Chis and sid only take the top 180 scorers for example.

The local comp which is actually an academy where my son is going has 3 separate 'houses' which one you end up in is done by selection test and one is an accelerated curriculum in their own in house grammar stream. My friend is a single mum originally off a rough council estate her son passed the 11+ with flying colours. Not one tutor or practice exam in sight. That put a few peoples backs up lol

Edited by Michaelawt85 (24 Mar 2017 2.18pm)

When I was a young girl my Mother said to me.. You listen here kid you're CPFC

Bullsh1t

If you really believe those that turn up with the fattest wallet get in, then I can't help you.

Edited by dannyh (24 Mar 2017 2.32pm)

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

Edited for accuracy.

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

Yes she probably is a hypocrite of the highest order. And actually she acknowledges it - at least on this point. I'm not seeking to defend Dianne Abbott. I don't care in the least about her.

"It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show