The irony of it is that, despite that being what Juncker meant, it's certainly not the UK that's going to sink.

I could say the same when you post one liners.

I'm stereotyping them because enough of them are showing themselves to be an embarrassment and forgetting some of the core values of our society, and all because they can do it from a keyboard.

Before last week I felt sorry for all the young and how much harder it is to be able to live away from home. Not so much now but they can still redeem themselves, not that I think anything much when seeing young people out and about, apart from buying a belt and skinny jeans look shyte, or if they're anti social in daylight and in sight of people.

I agree. The rest of the world already wonders what on earth is going on over here right now. If we start kicking out people who came here to live and work with the understanding that they could build a life and start a family, that would send out a terrible message to the world and damage our reputation. Leave or Remain alike, we can all agree that we don't need bulls*** BNP behaviour passed off as sensible policy.

When we leave the EU we will be leaving the banking passporting system. We'd then be unable to trade with the whole of the EU from London, a huge and damaging change from currently being a world hub and the gateway into Europe. Things like this and the implications of the WTO situation will need to be figured out before we leave.

When negotiating a new deal I suspect that we'll either not get the freedom of movement changes we're looking for, or we will get them but in exchange for giving up our access to the passporting system, the EU will see that as an opportunity to move the banking hub to Frankfurt or somewhere else in the EU resulting in tens of billions lost and hundreds of thousands of jobs. Once we're out of the EU the deal we get is out of our control to a large extent. It's whatever us and 27 EU countries 'all' agree on. Until something is agreed we are at the greatest disadvantage by far. Even if we get our way on everything, much damage would be done in the years previous as by default we're WTO and lose the passporting system. The city depends on it and will be forced to move to areas with single market access hugely setting back our economy. All kinds of businesses other than that wil be impacted too by the WTO scenario and general fallout. If that is a fair exchange for people who want freedom of movement stopped then that's fine, but since nobody has even talked about the worrying WTO and passporting it really just seems that 99% of people both don't know exactly what they have voted for and the implications of it.

There is little chance of getting out of this without financially being seriously reduced as a nation and in turn our clout too. Our primary strength right now is that we haven't left. We should be wanting to stall on that for as long as possible because until we leave damage is spread more uniformly. That creates space for forcing the EUs hand into giving us certain reassurances being we do leave. It's one of our useful bargaining chips. If we leave now it will be a complete disaster. I wouldn't care if immigration was zero per year but it's how workable something is, the consequences of it and the best way of going about it. If we're worried about employment, wages and so on then this action is not about to make any of those situations better. We are in for a grim decade unless we can manage to salvage something out of a situation that people have been too busy cheering about to entertain the realities of.

Edited by blackpalacefan (01 Jul 2016 7.43pm)

The banks don't want to go, well not the ones not French. It looks it isn't inevitable that we give up the European bank passporting system (or is this incorrect), and it looks as if it's Hollande who's pushing for this. It'll be a foreign affairs and general election victory. Is Merkel acquiescing but cautious with regards to the following negotiations? Is this why Sapin, the French Finance Minister said thins were on the table for discussion/negotiation?

I haven't said otherwise. It's our myopic attitude to the exclusion of all other factors that's being laughed at. We seem to imagine we can just leave the EU, form an instant stream of trade deals that gets us everything we want with few consequences. That won't happen. If we don't mind damaging the economy in exchange for a migration limit that is something that is doable yes.

The problem is that there are certain things our government simply is not going to budge on because it would bring our economy down, namely the single market. It's a no brainer then that we'll have an EEA deal to retain access to the single market. However that includes freedom of movement as a core component. If we somehow twist every arm since we need all 27 countries to even agree to us to join the EEA , to get a deal that limits immigration we may well be giving up a lot one way or another. That could be passporting for instance. Again, if people are happy with that, that's fine but it's this rose tinted idea of having our cake and eating that isn't happening. That and people being misled or not bothering to reserch the position we find ourselves in.

Farage always goes on about how the EU wont cut off its nose to spite its face, but its the wrong analogy. The EU if it wants to continue to exist will be more likely to treat us like a gangrenous limb, because if it's seen as a super smooth transition from EU to EEA, then multiple nations will have one foot out of the door before you know it. It's in their interests to make this look like a bad idea, even if they suffer collateral damage in the process. That will either lead to our country going down the s***ter for a decade or the EU collapsing if we succeed outside of it. I don't know which will happen and neither does anyone else. What I do know is that once outside of the EU and still in the single market we will have to adhere to rules and regulations that are essentially 'anti UK' for possibly decades with veto over them. In the past sometimes we've been the only country to veto rules and regs that we say as damaging to us. That goes out of the window.

The problem with our position is that once we leave, much of what happens next is no longer within our control. We're in danger of just having a crap, no say version of what we already have. I wouldn't care if immigration was zero, it's the long term consequences of us imagining that we have an upper hand in the current situation that concerns me. On top of that it helps the EU to know how much immigration is a fixation for us because if they put an offer forward that is economically damaging but gives us more control over free movement the people will likely support it even if the government isn't keen. We're in a very tough spot.

On top of that is immigration really going to come down? We have more non eu immigration than eu, and we have total say over that. I'm not saying that there arent huge problems with immigration, rather just that I have much more time for an argument where someone says, I'm so against immigration that I don't care if it seriously financially derails my country.. because that's probably where we're at.

Edited by blackpalacefan (06 Jul 2016 10.39pm)

They caught the fella that made the death threats to the MP

[Link]

I haven't said otherwise. It's our myopic attitude to the exclusion of all other factors that's being laughed at. We seem to imagine we can just leave the EU, form an instant stream of trade deals that gets us everything we want with few consequences. That won't happen. If we don't mind damaging the economy in exchange for a migration limit that is something that is doable yes.

The problem is that there are certain things our government simply is not going to budge on because it would bring our economy down, namely the single market. It's a no brainer then that we'll have an EEA deal to retain access to the single market. However that includes freedom of movement as a core component. If we somehow twist every arm since we need all 27 countries to even agree to us to join the EEA , to get a deal that limits immigration we may well be giving up a lot one way or another. That could be passporting for instance. Again, if people are happy with that, that's fine but it's this rose tinted idea of having our cake and eating that isn't happening. That and people being misled or not bothering to reserch the position we find ourselves in.

Farage always goes on about how the EU wont cut off its nose to spite its face, but its the wrong analogy. The EU if it wants to continue to exist will be more likely to treat us like a gangrenous limb, because if it's seen as a super smooth transition from EU to EEA, then multiple nations will have one foot out of the door before you know it. It's in their interests to make this look like a bad idea, even if they suffer collateral damage in the process. That will either lead to our country going down the s***ter for a decade or the EU collapsing if we succeed outside of it. I don't know which will happen and neither does anyone else. What I do know is that once outside of the EU and still in the single market we will have to adhere to rules and regulations that are essentially 'anti UK' for possibly decades with veto over them. In the past sometimes we've been the only country to veto rules and regs that we say as damaging to us. That goes out of the window.

The problem with our position is that once we leave, much of what happens next is no longer within our control. We're in danger of just having a crap, no say version of what we already have. I wouldn't care if immigration was zero, it's the long term consequences of us imagining that we have an upper hand in the current situation that concerns me. On top of that it helps the EU to know how much immigration is a fixation for us because if they put an offer forward that is economically damaging but gives us more control over free movement the people will likely support it even if the government isn't keen. We're in a very tough spot.

On top of that is immigration really going to come down? We have more non eu immigration than eu, and we have total say over that. I'm not saying that there arent huge problems with immigration, rather just that I have much more time for an argument where someone says, I'm so against immigration that I don't care if it seriously financially derails my country.. because that's probably where we're at.

Edited by blackpalacefan (06 Jul 2016 10.39pm)

Arson attack on Polish family with 'go back home' letter left.

[Link]

"Ewa Banaszak said her family wanted to stay but racist comments have "intensified" since the referendum."

This was always going to be the problem with Farage's populist approach. Tacitly blaming Johnny Foreigner for our general social ills - which is disingenuous - was always going to be picked up on by some individuals of the far right as an opportunity. Can't see it getting better before it get's worse.

Edited by Kermit8 (08 Jul 2016 10.31am)

I refer you back to a previous unanswered question:

When has an immigrant actually ruined your day personally?

The problems we need to solve due to an ever-increasing population will not go away if we close our borders. The population will still be over 70mill in 15 or so years time.