Topic

This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

Visit the current forum | Forum Rules

Page 217 of 1552 < 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 >

Kermit8 Hevon 12 Jul 16 9.26am
Originally posted by cardiff eagle The remain campaign was built on lies too! Don't forget that. I'm still waiting for the Armageddon they threatened to occur! That kind of compromise will be on the table. The EU needs us as much as we need them. That's not arrogant, it's just true. Merkel has said as much. What is it you remainers are actually upset about though? Is it that you liked free movement? Is it you think the EU laws are good? Is it solely single market? I don't really get what it is! If it's single market and free movement only and then that happens as part of a deal, what would the remaining problem be? Because if and when that happens there was absolutely no need to put us through the wringer in the first place and having the years ahead of unravelling our other links/laws with the EU - a few of which are very important which we will lose: The Social Charter and Environment protection - and all the uncertainty that goes with it economically and otherwise as well as giving hope of more power to The Far Right and Left elements here and across Europe. It's called a pyrrhic victory. I think the bigger picture was very much not seen by the Leave voters and if they did have one it was built on fantasy, nostalgia and naivety. They were manipulated in short. By more powerful others who also live in cloud-cuckoo land. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 12 Jul 16 9.26am

Originally posted by cardiff eagle

The remain campaign was built on lies too! Don't forget that. I'm still waiting for the Armageddon they threatened to occur!

That kind of compromise will be on the table. The EU needs us as much as we need them. That's not arrogant, it's just true. Merkel has said as much.

What is it you remainers are actually upset about though? Is it that you liked free movement? Is it you think the EU laws are good? Is it solely single market? I don't really get what it is! If it's single market and free movement only and then that happens as part of a deal, what would the remaining problem be?

Because if and when that happens there was absolutely no need to put us through the wringer in the first place and having the years ahead of unravelling our other links/laws with the EU - a few of which are very important which we will lose: The Social Charter and Environment protection - and all the uncertainty that goes with it economically and otherwise as well as giving hope of more power to The Far Right and Left elements here and across Europe.

It's called a pyrrhic victory.

I think the bigger picture was very much not seen by the Leave voters and if they did have one it was built on fantasy, nostalgia and naivety. They were manipulated in short. By more powerful others who also live in cloud-cuckoo land.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

Frickin Saweet South Cronx 12 Jul 16 9.40am
Originally posted by Kermit8 You sound like the Major in Fawlty Towers. You also sound like you think we will hold the aces when it comes to negotiations. bluster klaxon talking of aces, I think that May's failure to reassure EU nationals living in the UK that they will be protected indicates that they are going to be used as a major bargaining chip in trying to secure access to the single market. 'Let us keep our current trade deal or we'll ship all your lot living over here back to where they came from'. It's a callous and risky move but it's the only pawn May has and she knows it. Could backfire spectacularly considering that GB has the highest number of people living abroad in Europe. Edited by Frickin Saweet (12 Jul 2016 9.44am)

Frickin Saweet

South Cronx 12 Jul 16 9.40am

Originally posted by Kermit8

You sound like the Major in Fawlty Towers.

You also sound like you think we will hold the aces when it comes to negotiations.

*bluster klaxon*

talking of aces, I think that May's failure to reassure EU nationals living in the UK that they will be protected indicates that they are going to be used as a major bargaining chip in trying to secure access to the single market. 'Let us keep our current trade deal or we'll ship all your lot living over here back to where they came from'. It's a callous and risky move but it's the only pawn May has and she knows it. Could backfire spectacularly considering that GB has the highest number of people living abroad in Europe.

Edited by Frickin Saweet (12 Jul 2016 9.44am)

Rudi Hedman Caterham 12 Jul 16 10.25am
Originally posted by Kermit8 Because if and when that happens there was absolutely no need to put us through the wringer in the first place and having the years ahead of unravelling our other links/laws with the EU - a few of which are very important which we will lose: The Social Charter and Environment protection - and all the uncertainty that goes with it economically and otherwise as well as giving hope of more power to The Far Right and Left elements here and across Europe. It's called a pyrrhic victory. I think the bigger picture was very much not seen by the Leave voters and if they did have one it was built on fantasy, nostalgia and naivety. They were manipulated in short. By more powerful others who also live in cloud-cuckoo land. At least we can decide our own laws and WHEN Italy gets in even more trouble with debt, we really won't have to contribute to the bail out and not have to secretly contribute either. Italy's debt to GDP plateaued in 14/15 but if you've seen their economic figures recently and heard some of the commentary, you won't be surprised when it happens. Italy's debt to GDP is the 5th highest in the world at 132%, behind Japan 230%, Greece 176%, Lebanon, Jamaica. Portugal is just behind Italy at 129%. The sh1t is very close to the fan and, as we know, economic life cycles are generally 7-10 years long. Build trade links with the 55% and growing export partners of the UK outside of the EU and protect ourselves from this German export project. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 12 Jul 16 10.25am

Originally posted by Kermit8

Because if and when that happens there was absolutely no need to put us through the wringer in the first place and having the years ahead of unravelling our other links/laws with the EU - a few of which are very important which we will lose: The Social Charter and Environment protection - and all the uncertainty that goes with it economically and otherwise as well as giving hope of more power to The Far Right and Left elements here and across Europe.

It's called a pyrrhic victory.

At least we can decide our own laws and WHEN Italy gets in even more trouble with debt, we really won't have to contribute to the bail out and not have to secretly contribute either.

Italy's debt to GDP plateaued in 14/15 but if you've seen their economic figures recently and heard some of the commentary, you won't be surprised when it happens. Italy's debt to GDP is the 5th highest in the world at 132%, behind Japan 230%, Greece 176%, Lebanon, Jamaica.

Portugal is just behind Italy at 129%. The sh1t is very close to the fan and, as we know, economic life cycles are generally 7-10 years long. Build trade links with the 55% and growing export partners of the UK outside of the EU and protect ourselves from this German export project.

COYP

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Jul 16 10.34am
Originally posted by cardiff eagle The remain campaign was built on lies too! Don't forget that. I'm still waiting for the Armageddon they threatened to occur! That kind of compromise will be on the table. The EU needs us as much as we need them. That's not arrogant, it's just true. Merkel has said as much. What is it you remainers are actually upset about though? Is it that you liked free movement? Is it you think the EU laws are good? Is it solely single market? I don't really get what it is! If it's single market and free movement only and then that happens as part of a deal, what would the remaining problem be? Don't you realise that that is just another lie that you have been fed by the leavers? "Project fear" was a lie. There were predictions which so far have proved remarkably accurate, and there is no reason at all to suggest that their short term accuracy won't be matched by the longer term effects. The only thing which is modifying them is the introduction of some doubt into the scenarios caused by the leave campaigners disappearing and the resilience of the remainers not to accept the result at face value. I don't know what every remainer was thinking. For myself it has little to do with the single market and everything to do with our security and our place in the wider world. As the influence of the USA fades and Asia grows we need to build a strong block here in Europe. We need to cement the former USSR countries to the EU and avoid them being gathered back in by Russia. If Brexit causes contagion and the break up of the EU itself, let alone the breakup of the UK as well, then the whole event would be a disaster. So my thinking was not about economics but about the bigger picture. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 12 Jul 16 10.34am

Originally posted by cardiff eagle

The remain campaign was built on lies too! Don't forget that. I'm still waiting for the Armageddon they threatened to occur!

That kind of compromise will be on the table. The EU needs us as much as we need them. That's not arrogant, it's just true. Merkel has said as much.

What is it you remainers are actually upset about though? Is it that you liked free movement? Is it you think the EU laws are good? Is it solely single market? I don't really get what it is! If it's single market and free movement only and then that happens as part of a deal, what would the remaining problem be?

Don't you realise that that is just another lie that you have been fed by the leavers? "Project fear" was a lie. There were predictions which so far have proved remarkably accurate, and there is no reason at all to suggest that their short term accuracy won't be matched by the longer term effects. The only thing which is modifying them is the introduction of some doubt into the scenarios caused by the leave campaigners disappearing and the resilience of the remainers not to accept the result at face value.

I don't know what every remainer was thinking. For myself it has little to do with the single market and everything to do with our security and our place in the wider world. As the influence of the USA fades and Asia grows we need to build a strong block here in Europe. We need to cement the former USSR countries to the EU and avoid them being gathered back in by Russia. If Brexit causes contagion and the break up of the EU itself, let alone the breakup of the UK as well, then the whole event would be a disaster. So my thinking was not about economics but about the bigger picture.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Hrolf The Ganger 12 Jul 16 11.47am
Originally posted by Mr_Gristle Facts aren't daft Hrolf, they are neutral. The fact that there still has been no plan or clear strategy articulated at any stage by Leave unequivocally proves the fact that all they had (and have) is rhetoric. There is no program to get with or even an embryonic outline to give the people. Who's wearing the blinkers? It is daft. No government who comes into power actually knows what they will do specifically, let alone in this one of situation. Of course there is no specific plan because the circumstances are fluid to a large extent. This will involve a negotiation with people on the British side who haven't even been appointed yet. SO let's stop all this spurious, "where's your plan" nonsense.

Hrolf The Ganger

12 Jul 16 11.47am

Originally posted by Mr_Gristle

Facts aren't daft Hrolf, they are neutral.

The fact that there still has been no plan or clear strategy articulated at any stage by Leave unequivocally proves the fact that all they had (and have) is rhetoric.

There is no program to get with or even an embryonic outline to give the people.

Who's wearing the blinkers?

It is daft.

No government who comes into power actually knows what they will do specifically, let alone in this one of situation.
Of course there is no specific plan because the circumstances are fluid to a large extent.
This will involve a negotiation with people on the British side who haven't even been appointed yet.

SO let's stop all this spurious, "where's your plan" nonsense.

Hrolf The Ganger 12 Jul 16 11.50am
Originally posted by nickgusset So no clear answer to my assertions, just a bit of playing the man. I'm sure Corbyn has said he will invokke article 50.Keep up chap. Politicians say a lot of things when they are desperate and in opposition. He knows he will never have to make good on any promises.

Hrolf The Ganger

12 Jul 16 11.50am

Originally posted by nickgusset

So no clear answer to my assertions, just a bit of playing the man.
I'm sure Corbyn has said he will invokke article 50.Keep up chap.

Politicians say a lot of things when they are desperate and in opposition.

He knows he will never have to make good on any promises.

Hrolf The Ganger 12 Jul 16 11.56am
Originally posted by nickgusset So you don't erm know what the plan is then? How do you know if it will be anything like you want. What a stupid post. If there was a "plan", I certainly would not know it's specifics since I am not in the cabinet. Oh and incidentally, the new cabinet hasn't even been named yet. Enjoy this brief period of time when you can throw rotten tomatoes Gusset because this is the best it's ever going to get for your has been, disintegrating party.

Hrolf The Ganger

12 Jul 16 11.56am

Originally posted by nickgusset

So you don't erm know what the plan is then? How do you know if it will be anything like you want.

What a stupid post.

If there was a "plan", I certainly would not know it's specifics since I am not in the cabinet.

Oh and incidentally, the new cabinet hasn't even been named yet.

Enjoy this brief period of time when you can throw rotten tomatoes Gusset because this is the best it's ever going to get for your has been, disintegrating party.

topcat Holmesdale / Surbiton 12 Jul 16 12.33pm
Originally posted by Frickin Saweet talking of aces, I think that May's failure to reassure EU nationals living in the UK that they will be protected indicates that they are going to be used as a major bargaining chip in trying to secure access to the single market. 'Let us keep our current trade deal or we'll ship all your lot living over here back to where they came from'. It's a callous and risky move but it's the only pawn May has and she knows it. Could backfire spectacularly considering that GB has the highest number of people living abroad in Europe. Edited by Frickin Saweet (12 Jul 2016 9.44am) Sounds like Michael Caine in The Italian Job Charlie Croker: There are a quarter of a million Italians in Britain and they'll be made to suffer. Every restaurant, cafe, ice-cream parlor, gambling den and nightclub in London, Liverpool and Glasgow will be smashed. It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.

topcat

Holmesdale / Surbiton 12 Jul 16 12.33pm

Originally posted by Frickin Saweet

Edited by Frickin Saweet (12 Jul 2016 9.44am)

Sounds like Michael Caine in The Italian Job
Charlie Croker: There are a quarter of a million Italians in Britain and they'll be made to suffer. Every restaurant, cafe, ice-cream parlor, gambling den and nightclub in London, Liverpool and Glasgow will be smashed.

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.

Lyons550 Shirley 12 Jul 16 12.42pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger We are still in the short term. I believe that long term we will be better off. With regard to specific financial projections. There has never been a time when one could accurately predict the future since there are many factors that could influence conditions. To claim with certainty that will be worse off long term is little better than a guess. When we come to terms with Brexit and adapt to the new situation, we will be better equipped to see a little further ahead. All depends how long term "long term" is...if you rely on Remainers Longe term is 2 weeks allowing them to panic and throw incredible flounces. The Captain of HMS Economy has been given the order to change course and has just started to turn the wheel...we're heading away from the rocks and in the distance is the sun...there's some choppy waters to get through in the meantime. The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 12 Jul 16 12.42pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

We are still in the short term. I believe that long term we will be better off.
With regard to specific financial projections. There has never been a time when one could accurately predict the future since there are many factors that could influence conditions. To claim with certainty that will be worse off long term is little better than a guess.
When we come to terms with Brexit and adapt to the new situation, we will be better equipped to see a little further ahead.

All depends how long term "long term" is...if you rely on Remainers Longe term is 2 weeks allowing them to panic and throw incredible flounces.

The Captain of HMS Economy has been given the order to change course and has just started to turn the wheel...we're heading away from the rocks and in the distance is the sun...there's some choppy waters to get through in the meantime.

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 12 Jul 16 12.42pm
Originally posted by cardiff eagle The remain campaign was built on lies too! Don't forget that. I'm still waiting for the Armageddon they threatened to occur! 100% agree. Did they think that the voting populace were unable to process factual arguments? Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

Mr_Gristle

In the land of Whelk Eaters 12 Jul 16 12.42pm

Originally posted by cardiff eagle

The remain campaign was built on lies too! Don't forget that. I'm still waiting for the Armageddon they threatened to occur!

100% agree. Did they think that the voting populace were unable to process factual arguments?

Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 12 Jul 16 12.47pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger It is daft. No government who comes into power actually knows what they will do specifically, let alone in this one of situation. Of course there is no specific plan because the circumstances are fluid to a large extent. This will involve a negotiation with people on the British side who haven't even been appointed yet. SO let's stop all this spurious, "where's your plan" nonsense. So if there's no plan, you just voted for a concept? You have the absolute right to do so, don't get me wrong - I just can't get my head around committing to such a fundamental change without having anything other than soundbites to convince me. Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

Mr_Gristle

In the land of Whelk Eaters 12 Jul 16 12.47pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It is daft.

SO let's stop all this spurious, "where's your plan" nonsense.

So if there's no plan, you just voted for a concept?

You have the absolute right to do so, don't get me wrong - I just can't get my head around committing to such a fundamental change without having anything other than soundbites to convince me.

Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune)

Hrolf The Ganger 12 Jul 16 12.55pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Because if and when that happens there was absolutely no need to put us through the wringer in the first place and having the years ahead of unravelling our other links/laws with the EU - a few of which are very important which we will lose: The Social Charter and Environment protection - and all the uncertainty that goes with it economically and otherwise as well as giving hope of more power to The Far Right and Left elements here and across Europe. It's called a pyrrhic victory. I think the bigger picture was very much not seen by the Leave voters and if they did have one it was built on fantasy, nostalgia and naivety. They were manipulated in short. By more powerful others who also live in cloud-cuckoo land. Let's wait and see shall we. Be honest Kermy. What ever happens you will find a way to put a negative spin on it.

Hrolf The Ganger

12 Jul 16 12.55pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

It's called a pyrrhic victory.

I think the bigger picture was very much not seen by the Leave voters and if they did have one it was built on fantasy, nostalgia and naivety. They were manipulated in short. By more powerful others who also live in cloud-cuckoo land.

Let's wait and see shall we.

Be honest Kermy. What ever happens you will find a way to put a negative spin on it.

crystal balls The Garden of Earthly Delights 12 Jul 16 1.02pm
Originally posted by Lyons550 All depends how long term "long term" is...if you rely on Remainers Longe term is 2 weeks allowing them to panic and throw incredible flounces. The Captain of HMS Economy has been given the order to change course and has just started to turn the wheel...we're heading away from the rocks and in the distance is the sun...there's some choppy waters to get through in the meantime. I would suggest that, in this context, short term is 5 years and long term 10. It will take 5 years or so before the negative aspects of exit will manifest themselves fully, and only after 10 years will we be able to tell if any positives have occurred. I don't think remainers are panicking, just pointing out what was predicted before is actually happening now. Many commentators are now suggesting further falls against the dollar to around 1.20. We shall see! I used to be immortal

crystal balls

The Garden of Earthly Delights 12 Jul 16 1.02pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

All depends how long term "long term" is...if you rely on Remainers Longe term is 2 weeks allowing them to panic and throw incredible flounces.

I would suggest that, in this context, short term is 5 years and long term 10. It will take 5 years or so before the negative aspects of exit will manifest themselves fully, and only after 10 years will we be able to tell if any positives have occurred.

I don't think remainers are panicking, just pointing out what was predicted before is actually happening now. Many commentators are now suggesting further falls against the dollar to around 1.20. We shall see!

I used to be immortal

Hrolf The Ganger 12 Jul 16 1.08pm
Originally posted by Mr_Gristle So if there's no plan, you just voted for a concept? You have the absolute right to do so, don't get me wrong - I just can't get my head around committing to such a fundamental change without having anything other than soundbites to convince me. Any and all elections are about a concept. Anyone who thinks otherwise is totally naive. Any new administration does not know what it will do specifically until it sees the books and in this instance, no one has formed any more than basic plan because the PM has resigned and the new cabinet has yet to be announced. The decision to leave was about broad principals and projections. I know that this country cannot sustain the current levels of immigration and I know that Europe will push toward federalism. For all that could mean for Britain, I voted leave and unlike some I did not delude myself that spurious facts, figures and projections by both sides actually meant anything. They were all spin and unreliable prediction.

Hrolf The Ganger

12 Jul 16 1.08pm

Originally posted by Mr_Gristle

So if there's no plan, you just voted for a concept?

You have the absolute right to do so, don't get me wrong - I just can't get my head around committing to such a fundamental change without having anything other than soundbites to convince me.

Any and all elections are about a concept. Anyone who thinks otherwise is totally naive.

Any new administration does not know what it will do specifically until it sees the books and in this instance, no one has formed any more than basic plan because the PM has resigned and the new cabinet has yet to be announced.

The decision to leave was about broad principals and projections.

I know that this country cannot sustain the current levels of immigration and I know that Europe will push toward federalism. For all that could mean for Britain, I voted leave and unlike some I did not delude myself that spurious facts, figures and projections by both sides actually meant anything. They were all spin and unreliable prediction.

Lyons550 Shirley 12 Jul 16 1.11pm
Originally posted by crystal balls I would suggest that, in this context, short term is 5 years and long term 10. It will take 5 years or so before the negative aspects of exit will manifest themselves fully, and only after 10 years will we be able to tell if any positives have occurred. I don't think remainers are panicking, just pointing out what was predicted before is actually happening now. Many commentators are now suggesting further falls against the dollar to around 1.20. We shall see! I'd agree with you re: the timescale...basic economics aint it! Seemingly a lot dont though as I'm seeing Reaminers pressing the panic button; flailing arms; getting ready for the 4th apocalypse all over the place....perhaps you might have a word (?)... The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 12 Jul 16 1.11pm

Originally posted by crystal balls

I'd agree with you re: the timescale...basic economics aint it!

Seemingly a lot dont though as I'm seeing Reaminers pressing the panic button; flailing arms; getting ready for the 4th apocalypse all over the place....perhaps you might have a word (?)...

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 12 Jul 16 1.11pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger What a stupid post. If there was a "plan", I certainly would not know it's specifics since I am not in the cabinet. Oh and incidentally, the new cabinet hasn't even been named yet. Enjoy this brief period of time when you can throw rotten tomatoes Gusset because this is the best it's ever going to get for your has been, disintegrating party. I'll put it another way... What are you expecting from Brexit?

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 12 Jul 16 1.11pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

What a stupid post.

If there was a "plan", I certainly would not know it's specifics since I am not in the cabinet.

Oh and incidentally, the new cabinet hasn't even been named yet.

Enjoy this brief period of time when you can throw rotten tomatoes Gusset because this is the best it's ever going to get for your has been, disintegrating party.

I'll put it another way...
What are you expecting from Brexit?

Hrolf The Ganger 12 Jul 16 1.27pm
Originally posted by nickgusset I'll put it another way... What are you expecting from Brexit? Erm, to leave Europe. Hello!

Hrolf The Ganger

12 Jul 16 1.27pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

I'll put it another way...
What are you expecting from Brexit?

Erm, to leave Europe. Hello!

dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 12 Jul 16 1.33pm
The remain camp, this is you. Attachment: crying.jpeg (67.24Kb) "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 12 Jul 16 1.33pm

The remain camp, this is you.

Attachment: crying.jpeg (67.24Kb)

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

DanH SW2 12 Jul 16 1.52pm
Originally posted by dannyh The remain camp, this is you. Pretty sure one of the main features of politics is to be able to continue to challenge decisions and to hold governments to account. If people just sat back and accepted election results there would be no point having opposition parties for most of the incumbent party's term (not much unlike now tbf).

DanH

SW2 12 Jul 16 1.52pm

Originally posted by dannyh

The remain camp, this is you.

Pretty sure one of the main features of politics is to be able to continue to challenge decisions and to hold governments to account.

If people just sat back and accepted election results there would be no point having opposition parties for most of the incumbent party's term (not much unlike now tbf).

crystal balls The Garden of Earthly Delights 12 Jul 16 1.56pm
Originally posted by DanH Pretty sure one of the main features of politics is to be able to continue to challenge decisions and to hold governments to account. If people just sat back and accepted election results there would be no point having opposition parties for most of the incumbent party's term (not much unlike now tbf). Exactly; and as just about all of the exit leaders have knobbed off, they wont be around to defend their position if it all goes tits up. I used to be immortal

crystal balls

The Garden of Earthly Delights 12 Jul 16 1.56pm

Originally posted by DanH

Pretty sure one of the main features of politics is to be able to continue to challenge decisions and to hold governments to account.

If people just sat back and accepted election results there would be no point having opposition parties for most of the incumbent party's term (not much unlike now tbf).

Exactly; and as just about all of the exit leaders have knobbed off, they wont be around to defend their position if it all goes tits up.

I used to be immortal

Page 217 of 1552 < 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 >

Crystal Palace FC Supporters' Website - The Holmesdale Online

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

Site Map