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Originally posted by Nest
Jews find it disgraceful that the media play on this just so they can slate the Party and Corbyn I am sure some do. However do not under estimate how many are incredibly unhappy. Unhappy with the attacks, unhappy with Shami Chakrabarti and how she was "rewarded" and unhappy with Corbyn's lack of leadership on the issue
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Originally posted by nickgusset
As a fervent Tory what do you think about your glorious lying leader unwilling to take part in a leaders debate? I have some sympathy with May. I think she should probably have agreed to do one. However as a leader you are on a hiding to nothing with these debates. Also, now that everyone bar the Monster Raving Loony Party can go on they have become a bit of a farce. History, such as it is shows that they have very little impact on how people vote
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Before the EU Referendum, the Remain camp told us that the economy would collapse, the pound would fall 20% against the dollar, the FTSE would nosedive and companies flee from Britain. None of this has of course happened, apart from a much less steep fall in the value of the pound. Instead the FTSE has reached record highs, the economy has grown and companies are investing in Britain. It is was too soon to know what, if any fallout will happen due to Brexit.
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Before the EU Referendum, the Remain camp told us that the economy would collapse, the pound would fall 20% against the dollar, the FTSE would nosedive and companies flee from Britain. None of this has of course happened, apart from a much less steep fall in the value of the pound. Instead the FTSE has reached record highs, the economy has grown and companies are investing in Britain. There are a few reports about library service reductions in which councillors talk about the need for austerity, as if austerity were some new-fangled wheeze that just occurred to them: "Tell you what, Reg, Linda, why don't we all tighten our belts and safeguard the service?" Oh, never heard that one before and of course, far from safeguarding any of the services given a quick austerity fix, those services have been pauperised then privatised. Austerity was always a delusion, a fundamental shift of wealth, control and influence from public service to private acquisition, from poor to rich.
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Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch
I have some sympathy with May. I think she should probably have agreed to do one. However as a leader you are on a hiding to nothing with these debates. Also, now that everyone bar the Monster Raving Loony Party can go on they have become a bit of a farce. History, such as it is shows that they have very little impact on how people vote Of course live debates on TV are uncomfortable there are no idiot boards and prepared speeches but in real life a PM will have to deal with events hiding from the camera just shows he/she is not up to it.
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Originally posted by Willo
Never heard such nonsense about the TV debate for some time. It has been reported that Mrs May will appear in a 'Question Time' format rather than a head-to-head debate where the format favours opposition parties. TV debates in the past have turned elections into a 'X Factor' type talent show. Why should Mrs May demean her 'High office' by agreeing to equal billing with political 'Lightweights', some might deem misfits, who are united only in their hostility to Brexit and the Conservative Party ? Anyway I've got a busy day out campaigning etc so no more from me today on this thread. I'll just make my point then tell you I am out so I won't get a reply as my Willo post is sacrosanct nothing else matters but my Willo opinion....
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Originally posted by steeleye20
I'll just make my point then tell you I am out so I won't get a reply as my Willo post is sacrosanct nothing else matters but my Willo opinion.... By all accounts ITV will empty chair her. (may not Willo)
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Great speech from Corbyn this morning. What I like is that he says what goes in the manifesto will be fully costed. An extract, full speech here... [Link] Britain needs a Labour government that is prepared to fight for people in every part of the country, our towns, villages, as well as big cities. A Labour government that isn’t scared to take on the cosy cartels that are hoarding this country’s wealth for themselves. It needs a government that will use that wealth to invest in people’s lives in every community to build a better future for every person who lives here. Because the Conservatives, drunk on a failed ideology, are hell bent on cutting every public service they get their hands on, and they will use all of the divide-and-rule tricks of the Lynton Crosby trade to keep their rigged system intact. Don’t be angry at the privatisers profiting from our public services, they whisper, be angry instead at the migrant worker just trying to make a better life. Don’t be angry at the government ministers running down our schools and hospitals, they tell us, be angry instead at the disabled woman or the unemployed man. It is the rigged economy the Tories are protecting that Labour is committed to challenging. We will not let the elite extract wealth from the pockets of ordinary working people any longer. So many people in modern Britain do what seems like the right thing to do. They get jobs, they spend all day working hard, they save to buy their own home, they raise children, they look after elderly or sick relatives. And yet, at the end of it, they get almost nothing left over as a reward. Nick - there's probably not many Conservative voters who don't agree with all that either. You come across as having this blinkered view that every Tory voter has a massive portfolio of shares and a private health plan and couldn't give a monkey's about the disabled, gay and poor members of society. The truth is most Conservative voters would like the NHS to be better funded. Most Conservative voters would like London to be populated by Londoners and not foreign investors. Most Conservative voters would like wealth to be better distributed. But most Conservative voters know that Labour always get the mix wrong. They fall over themselves to give everyone with a bad back a disabled badge and a motorbility car. They go out of their way to ensure the gay members of society get investment. They always end up bankrupting the country whilst pretending to be a latter day Robin Hood. The hardworking people of Britain are then left with a choice of knowing they are propping up the Tories mates at large corporations or watching Labour fund every 'good' cause going and screw up the economy. You really need to stop seeing it as a good against evil battle and realise that Conservative voters are not a bunch of property barons looking for a Tax dodge - but members of society looking for an acceptable alternative yet being offered Corbyn, Kinnock, Foot, Blair, Brown etc. and pie in the sky dreams of everybody being equal.
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Originally posted by nickgusset
By all accounts ITV will empty chair her. (may not Willo) They will be wrong to if they do. Trying to bully her, or anyone in to appearing is wrong. Empty chairing smacks of political bias too.
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Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch
It is was too soon to know what, if any fallout will happen due to Brexit. If it was "too soon", why were all the scaremongering referendum treasury reports and forecasts for "Brexit" on a timeline of "XX months after the Brexit vote"? Go back and look at them. They lay out what the effect would be after a Brexit vote. There were the pathetic "oh, but we haven't enacted A50 yet" excuses. OK, I'll be generous. Now we have. Where's the armageddon? I'm still waiting for the punishment budget, personally.
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Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch
It is was too soon to know what, if any fallout will happen due to Brexit. The fall in the pound isn't much less than 20% as he says. It is 20%. And I voted Leave.
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Inequality is much lower in Germany because they have massively screwed the poorer parts of the EU much to their personal benefit. Also....very little economic socialism in Germany. Also, the Nordic countries have advantages over larger countries. Some of them have access to large natural resources, which for small nations provides huge advantages. Also, there is no real socialism within these countries....Though I will agree with you that they do some systems far better than us. However their system works because their culture has been homogeneous for a long time. The more they tear that down with immigration the more fractured their society will become and the less well systems will work. That makes no sense... How would that make inequality lower?? Also Denmark, while it does have oil and gas reserves, is primarily a manufacturing and agriculture led economy and is a net exporter of both. They have also committed to moving to almost total use of renewable energy by 2050. Finland doesn't really have oil, it's main natural resource is trees. Their government spends huge amounts on training, education and R&D. Tax rates in Denmark are above 50% on income for high earners (in total not just top slice) and is one of the highest in the world. They don't seem to mind though. The benefits of less inequality and adequate government investment seem to be worth it!
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Originally posted by davenotamonkey
If it was "too soon", why were all the scaremongering referendum treasury reports and forecasts for "Brexit" on a timeline of "XX months after the Brexit vote"? Go back and look at them. They lay out what the effect would be after a Brexit vote. There were the pathetic "oh, but we haven't enacted A50 yet" excuses. OK, I'll be generous. Now we have. Where's the armageddon? I'm still waiting for the punishment budget, personally. Do you know whether there will be freedom of movement No one, absolutely no one knows what will happen. It may be the best thing that has happened to the country in 50 years, it could be the worst. Time will tell.
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Originally posted by davenotamonkey
It's fascinating how these "Leader's debates" have become a thing. I was originally quite enthusiastic for them,, but it became evident they were just an instrument of the media circus, and do little to move debate on. Another unwelcome Americanization (sic) of our political process. As was made clear in the US election, there is no attempt at impartiality and clear precedent for "leaking" questions to the preferred media darling. If you rely on a televised debate of polished soundbites to guide your way, then perhaps better not to vote. Read the manifestos, at the very least. As for May not doing them: not sure I care. No doubt she'll be called chicken. Which is an ironic label for a PM that just called a snap election despite having office until 2020. The real reason behind calling the election I imagine is confidence of increasing her majority but concern over impending CPS prosecutions of Tory MPs who broke election rules in 2015. So maybe not a chicken for refusing debates - I agree they are more a spectacle than anything useful - but she could be called a chicken for running away from the CPS prosecutions issue.
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Before the EU Referendum, the Remain camp told us that the economy would collapse, the pound would fall 20% against the dollar, the FTSE would nosedive and companies flee from Britain. None of this has of course happened, apart from a much less steep fall in the value of the pound. Instead the FTSE has reached record highs, the economy has grown and companies are investing in Britain. Brexit hasn't happened yet. Jobs are, as we speak, being moved out of the UK, along with international agencies and companies. The FTSE moves with negative correlation to the pound and the value of the pound reflects investors confidence in the future of the underlying economy. These things weren't predicted to happen 24th June, but over time post Brexit. What has already happen, ironically, is billions of pounds worth of UK property has been sold from UK investors and pension funds to foreign investors, mainly from Asia, the biggest example is the Cheesegrater which was sold by British Land to a Chinese company for over £1bn. Just a fortnight ago a Chinese investor purchased the Nestle building and surrounding buildings in Croydon. This was brought about by UK investors being concerned about the future of the economy, particularly for office occupiers in London so pulling their money out, and the fall in the value of the pound, which made purchasing UK property using foreign currency much cheaper. Why is this ironic? Well the direct result of this is when British companies pay their rent each quarter a significantly larger proportion than pre-Brexit goes straight out of the country. Rather than going into a pension pot for UK citizens these rents now go to China or wherever else. This is basically like importing property. In a vote to stop letting people come here to work and contribute to society and the economy, the Brexit brigade has accelerated the removal of British assets owned by British interests and results in money flowing directly out of the economy. The largest landowner in London is Qatar Holdings. The government of Qatar are the 51st biggest owner of London property. The government of Kuwait is the 16th. This has only got worse since 23rd June.
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Originally posted by Pikester
Nick - there's probably not many Conservative voters who don't agree with all that either. You come across as having this blinkered view that every Tory voter has a massive portfolio of shares and a private health plan and couldn't give a monkey's about the disabled, gay and poor members of society. The truth is most Conservative voters would like the NHS to be better funded. Most Conservative voters would like London to be populated by Londoners and not foreign investors. Most Conservative voters would like wealth to be better distributed. But most Conservative voters know that Labour always get the mix wrong. They fall over themselves to give everyone with a bad back a disabled badge and a motorbility car. They go out of their way to ensure the gay members of society get investment. They always end up bankrupting the country whilst pretending to be a latter day Robin Hood. The hardworking people of Britain are then left with a choice of knowing they are propping up the Tories mates at large corporations or watching Labour fund every 'good' cause going and screw up the economy. You really need to stop seeing it as a good against evil battle and realise that Conservative voters are not a bunch of property barons looking for a Tax dodge - but members of society looking for an acceptable alternative yet being offered Corbyn, Kinnock, Foot, Blair, Brown etc. and pie in the sky dreams of everybody being equal. What a load of rubbish. What evidence (data and analysis) do you have to back this up? This discussion has been one of data and analysis provided by those of us on here who would rather not have the Tories and then unsupported claims from the more right wing. I've not seen one bit of data used by anyone else on here that backs up your claims. Also the assertion that Labour's policies are unworkable - where is your evidence of this? I can direct you to more than one Nobel Laureate who would argue that such plans are workable, and empirical evidence to back them up.
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
What a load of rubbish. What evidence (data and analysis) do you have to back this up? This discussion has been one of data and analysis provided by those of us on here who would rather not have the Tories and then unsupported claims from the more right wing. I've not seen one bit of data used by anyone else on here that backs up your claims. Also the assertion that Labour's policies are unworkable - where is your evidence of this? I can direct you to more than one Nobel Laureate who would argue that such plans are workable, and empirical evidence to back them up. I take it you will be voting for Corbyn's Labour, in June. Sell it to me!
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
The real reason behind calling the election I imagine is confidence of increasing her majority but concern over impending CPS prosecutions of Tory MPs who broke election rules in 2015. So maybe not a chicken for refusing debates - I agree they are more a spectacle than anything useful - but she could be called a chicken for running away from the CPS prosecutions issue. I think she imagines she will have more clout in the EU if she can be elected and able to portray the country as united. To be elected is a plus but to win an election does not mean that the voters are united over brexit the public is not stupid they realise this is largely to be determined in the EU. The NHS housing lots of other issues important to us and which are decided here they should be at the front, pushing brexit all the time covers up the realities of our day to day existence. Take away brexit and you see the country in a different light and not necessarily to the tories advantage.
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