A healthier workforce is much more productive though...

Mental health as important as physical health in that.

No, i don't. Check out Kerala. 50 years of very left-wing success. Highest literacy rates in India, well-being good, etc. All relative, of course, but if you had been born not well off in India in the 1950's you would probably have wanted to be born there.

By 'truly' socialist, I more or less mean where the state controls all means of production, distribution and exchange - you know Clause 4 of the old Labour party constitution that Corbyn wants to reinstate.

Sure it's important but I bet that infrastructure projects that stimulate industry growth has a bigger multipler effect. That's my point. There wasn't any global demand when Balls was broadcasting that such projects should be happening. They still aren't, or enough. Well maybe a faster train journey linking London to the north. Should be better rail links around the north instead.

UK from 1945 to 1969 was quite socialist? Welfare state, NHS etc.

Because of their helping hand everywhere all through life France's debt is rising and rising, when I last looked a couple of years ago.

What were you looking at out of interest?

True they have higher debt than us, but not by much and it's been growing a lot less quickly than our debt. This means that they have a lower deficit than we do.

I will upload a household debt chart in a minute as HOL won't let me upload 2 at once.

What do you mean by "truly socialist"? I'd describe France as a socialist economy and despite what you might read in the press you're more likely to be in work in France than you are in the US. Standards of living in France are generally good and quality of life is good. They have higher levels of productivity than we have and it's a much more egalitarian society. France does have it's problems but you'd be wrong to say it has failed miserably, and the poor have become poorer. The poor in France are much less poor than the poor in the UK.

From a British Heart Foundation report:

"The financial cost of mental ill health to British
business is an estimated £26bn per year"

in addition

"Sickness absence costs UK businesses an estimated £29bn each year"

and

"The report calculates that the overall cost to employers of replacing staff in the UK is £4.1bn a year."

That's lots of money.

What do you mean by poor?

My father died when I was 5, I grew up in the 70s. Single parent family with a widow's pension. I have worked since I was 11. We had few of the equivalent luxuries that now mean you are considered poor if you don't have them.

I also lived through the 3 day week yar de yar de yar you know the story decline of textiles, mining and steel etc

Maggie came along just before I was finishing school. The Tories helped make me believe that I could do better, that I could achieve something. So I had to move, so what?

What a lot of people on the left fail to realise is that the Tories have been aspirational. That's not to say they haven't made huge mistakes or f***ed people over at times but generally the appeal to many working people is the fact that they can make better. e.g. Mondeo man

Before you start thinking I am a tory boy, I have actually only voted Conservative 3 or 4 times, I tend to be centre right in outlook. The last few elections I have voted Lib Dem, historically where my family have politically been.