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General Election 2017


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 15 Jun 17 2.33pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Taking out our differences towards defence I agree with you.

On vanity projects the wisdom or lack of it over the northern/southern rail project is an interesting one. A thread on that would be informative.

As for the shelved 'garden bridge' I personally was saddened to see it go.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Jun 2017 12.55pm)

I was struggling to think of an example (I'm not against retaining a deterrent). Its more the contradiction between not being able to employ police officers against a present and real threat to life, but we can to a future possible threat.

It wasn't specifically about Trident

 


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Stirlingsays Flag 15 Jun 17 2.48pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I was struggling to think of an example (I'm not against retaining a deterrent). Its more the contradiction between not being able to employ police officers against a present and real threat to life, but we can to a future possible threat.

It wasn't specifically about Trident

I think the Tories are misguided on Police numbers.....In a lot of ways the Tory administration reminds me of a student nurse constantly trying to patch up wounds without really knowing how best to do it.

Not that this means that I think Corbyn would ultimately improve things long term.

If we can effectively deter then the method of doing it shouldn't matter. I have no other choice but to trust those in control to achieve this.

I'm hoping that technology defence systems will eventually ultimately make payload delivery systems an ineffective choice and hence not cost effective....I know we are a long way from achieving this.

Then I'd imagine it's about making making small nuclear devices that can be constructed in a hidden but populated place ineffective.....Some way of detecting the materials effectively perhaps.

I have more faith in technology to solve these problems...despite its counter race element... than any politician or written agreement.


Edited by Stirlingsays (15 Jun 2017 2.56pm)

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 15 Jun 17 2.52pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

The chancellor is running out of avenues where he can collect tax which is why he attempted to reign in the self-employed.

Now the burden of tax should be falling on those able to carry it in other words those who actually have the money.

So the govt. having penalised the 'just getting by' and the poor since the crash may now have to turn to their own supporters and donors, corporations and the wealthy.

They have enjoyed the years since the financial crisis making little or no contribution to the country at the expense of the many who have and whose outlook is worse not better.

I'd rather see rises across the board, on income tax, and dividends, rather than a tax aimed at just the top 1%. Its not because I love the top 1%, but that all of society should contribute, not just 'the people who don't vote for you'.

The cost of society should be born by its citizens as a whole, and its businesses. Companies that attempt to escape tax revenue, should be refused access to UK Markets. And no should UK arms of companies by offsetting losses made outside the UK by against UK Tax.

The system has to be fair(ish) if its to work, and that means everyone has to be contributing equally - All citizens, as one.

If necessary, I'd rather see higher levies on things like inheritance (widows and spouse excepted), capital gains and duties rather than targeting that specifically targets peoples income bracket.

It might really suck to pay 40% inheritance taxes for your parents house, or savings - but it isn't you who worked for it after all. Its still kind of 'free money'.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 15 Jun 17 2.57pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I think the Tories are misguided on Police numbers.....In a lot of ways the Tory administration reminds me of a student nurse constantly trying to patch up wounds without really knowing how best to do it.

Not that this means that I think Corbyn would ultimately improve things long term.

I suspect that anti-terrorism probably isn't really affected by spending cuts at all, not directly. However, if it isn't, that's because cuts were made elsewhere to provide anti-terrorism and close protection police - which in turn means police cuts in other areas, which affect people far more and far more frequently than police, and in cross over services.

People would tend to think that response to terrorism after the London Bridge attacks is 'anti-terrorism' but its not, it was police armed response teams.

Anti-terrorism and counter-terrorism is pro-active rather than reactive.

 


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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 15 Jun 17 3.05pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

It doesn't matter how I perceive it. It doesn't matter how you perceive it. What matters is what the effect of the policies are. Is more money raised or less....Is it more effective in the long term or not?

I have zero problems with improving infrastructure and public services. What I have a problem with are selling fantasy methods for doing it. I don't think they are honest.

People do not pay tax willingly if they can avoid it. For me to have to say this is what is ridiculous. If you want to actually improve tax take you should look to improve profitability as your first port of call.

If you are going to attempt to sell any other method then first tell me how you are going to force people to keep their money here and invest? People with money tend to be jealous with it....that's why they have it.

Correlation and causation are two different things. If you look at the reasons for increased tax take it's very hard to argue that decreasing the rate lead to increased tax revenues. There are other reasons for increased profitability. If anything you could argue that, if returns are measured after tax, then decreasing the rate allows lower effort and productivity to achieve the same targets. In reality most businesses look at metrics such as operating cash flows and EBITDA as measures of performance and benchmarking. The incentives to maximise profits don't fall away at the kind of relatively low rates we're debating. True if you get back up to 40-50% CT then the incentives would wear thin but not at 26%.

The best way to improve profitability is to look at improving productivity (reducing inequality helps a lot with this), providing a healthy, motivated and well educated workforce and improving national infrastructure (investment) such as transport, roads and 5G/broadband. Paying a few extra % in CT for companies is well worth it for such a return.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 15 Jun 17 3.06pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yes, they have widened the tax base but that is only part of why the tax take went up. Increased profits were the main reason. That's what the FT directly said and you state as barmy.

State where the financial times was wrong.

Does the FT states that the REASON for increased profitability was a reduced tax rate? NO.

 

Jimenez Flag SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 15 Jun 17 3.33pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Terrible idea. Massively regressive. Would make us poorer as a society and increase inequality, which is bad for the economy.

No it means that you keep more of what you earn and spend it accordingly on White goods,holidays, food & drink etc where you pay a higher VAT rate.

 


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Stirlingsays Flag 15 Jun 17 3.38pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Does the FT states that the REASON for increased profitability was a reduced tax rate? NO.

God you're hilarious.

From what I read...well yeah it's a main factor.

 


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steeleye20 Flag Croydon 15 Jun 17 4.11pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

When you have taken all the money from those that have it and given it to those who do not, and the companies that produce wealth have ceased to operate, and the recently enriched people have spent all their new money, what do you do?

Edited by hedgehog50 (15 Jun 2017 12.50pm)

None of that happens H, we are only talking about them making a fair contribution to society.

Paying 3% more on an income of 80,000 is hardly going to bother you.

 

jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 15 Jun 17 4.17pm

Originally posted by Jimenez

No it means that you keep more of what you earn and spend it accordingly on White goods,holidays, food & drink etc where you pay a higher VAT rate.

Well only if you earn enough to spend on white goods, holidays, drink etc... Which I think is much more of a significant problem that fiddling with tax rates.

Wages. Which are in many cases, s**t, compared to local costs which have been rising.

We need to control things like rents, mortgages and wages over taxation as a priority, to ensure that working is a) a route out of poverty b) provides at least something more than a life comparable to being on welfare.

A working adult should be able to cover rent, utilities, council tax, travel, a reasonable food bill and still have a something left over for recreation, savings etc.

When you have couples with kids, spending 1/2 to 3/4 of their income on rent, taxation reform etc isn't the problem. Its wages.


That way, we can start to engineer a society in which taxation can be taken fairly, when people aren't spending their salary standing still.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 15 Jun 17 4.21pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

When you have taken all the money from those that have it and given it to those who do not, and the companies that produce wealth have ceased to operate, and the recently enriched people have spent all their new money, what do you do?

Edited by hedgehog50 (15 Jun 2017 12.50pm)

But that's not how taxation works. How tax works is that the rich people who have it, avoid paying as much as they can, and vote for political parties who keep reducing the amount of tax and providing tax shelter options for those who have it, whilst those who don't get f**ked.

This occurs so frequently, that people exist who entirely make their careers out of ensuring people with money pay as little tax as possible. Whilst oddly, at the other end of the scale, we have an entire infrastructure in place to ensure that those with a little of the wealth, have as little control over their taxation as possible.

 


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 15 Jun 17 4.44pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Well only if you earn enough to spend on white goods, holidays, drink etc... Which I think is much more of a significant problem that fiddling with tax rates.

Wages. Which are in many cases, s**t, compared to local costs which have been rising.

We need to control things like rents, mortgages and wages over taxation as a priority, to ensure that working is a) a route out of poverty b) provides at least something more than a life comparable to being on welfare.

A working adult should be able to cover rent, utilities, council tax, travel, a reasonable food bill and still have a something left over for recreation, savings etc.

When you have couples with kids, spending 1/2 to 3/4 of their income on rent, taxation reform etc isn't the problem. Its wages.


That way, we can start to engineer a society in which taxation can be taken fairly, when people aren't spending their salary standing still.

Spot on.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 15 Jun 17 5.01pm

Originally posted by Jimenez

No it means that you keep more of what you earn and spend it accordingly on White goods,holidays, food & drink etc where you pay a higher VAT rate.

Indirect taxes are regressive and should not be used as a replacement for income tax. VAT is bloody complicated as well. It would also be a nightmare for stuff which has no VAT on it as it would go up in price as well, which includes stuff like rent, banking and insurance as these are exempt activities and the companies involved in their provision cannot reclaim VAT so their costs would go up and therefore their prices go up.

 

hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 15 Jun 17 5.10pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

None of that happens H, we are only talking about them making a fair contribution to society.

Paying 3% more on an income of 80,000 is hardly going to bother you.

How is it 'fair'?

 


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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 15 Jun 17 5.13pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

God you're hilarious.

From what I read...well yeah it's a main factor.

So what the article ACTUALLY says is that the Treasury estimated that the COST of the cut in rates would be offset by 40-60% in the long run due to increase in take on OTHER taxes as a result of increased spending due to additional retained earnings for companies.

It then says, as I said, that banks are now making money again post GFC and that their utilisation of carried forward losses has been restricted (widened tax base as I said).

It also says that business investment is subdued (bad for the economy) despite the cut in tax rates, which meant that there was lower levels of tax relief for investment (again this is in SPITE of a cut not because of it).

They then mention BEPS, action on anti-avoidance and diverted profits tax which I also mentioned. This has nothing to do with the rate.

The only part of the article that claims increases in tax take are in any part due to the cuts in the rate are by making Britain more attractive as an HQ for multinationals. However companies will make suce decisions on a number of factors, including infrastructure, available talent, Brexit, other taxes and rates payable. It's notable that an effect of incoming BEPS legislation will force companies that locate in the UK have to be doing so in reality for genuine commercial reasons and have trade here to take advantage of the lower tax rates. In order to do this companies will require there to be well trained, healthy and motivated staff and the infrastructure to run a business. How do you provide this? From taxation. Companies cannot have their cake and eat it too.

 

Lyons550 Flag Shirley 15 Jun 17 5.15pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

But that's not how taxation works. How tax works is that the rich people who have it, avoid paying as much as they can, and vote for political parties who keep reducing the amount of tax and providing tax shelter options for those who have it, whilst those who don't get f**ked.

This occurs so frequently, that people exist who entirely make their careers out of ensuring people with money pay as little tax as possible. Whilst oddly, at the other end of the scale, we have an entire infrastructure in place to ensure that those with a little of the wealth, have as little control over their taxation as possible.


Perhaps the HMRC should operate a system akin to No Claims Discount...in that the more years a company pays Corporate Tax at the correct rate...it receives a discount the following year?

 


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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 15 Jun 17 5.26pm

Originally posted by Lyons550


Perhaps the HMRC should operate a system akin to No Claims Discount...in that the more years a company pays Corporate Tax at the correct rate...it receives a discount the following year?

Perhaps staffing levels at HMRC should be increased so that there's manpower to chase down evaders / avoiders.
How much would it cost to train and pay a tax person per year. 30-40k? How much tax are they likely to track down, alot more than that I'd chance.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 15 Jun 17 5.30pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Perhaps staffing levels at HMRC should be increased so that there's manpower to chase down evaders / avoiders.
How much would it cost to train and pay a tax person per year. 30-40k? How much tax are they likely to track down, alot more than that I'd chance.

Under-staffing and trying to make HMRC do more with less has had mixed results, but it's likely to have been a false economy. I agree that investment is needed to provide HMRC with the appropriate resources and improve techniques to make tax collection more efficient.

 

jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 15 Jun 17 5.32pm

Originally posted by Lyons550


Perhaps the HMRC should operate a system akin to No Claims Discount...in that the more years a company pays Corporate Tax at the correct rate...it receives a discount the following year?

I think incentivising corporate tax cuts makes sense. Start at 26% but if your lowest paid worker earns 30k a year pro-rata then you get 25%. But if half your workforce earns more than 30k a year, you pay 15% etc.

If your a Landlord or property business, then your corporation tax is adjusted from 26% additionally based on how you pay your staff, and how your rents compare to the market value.

I'd have no problem with companies paying 0% corporation tax if in doing so they saved themselves some money, their staff got better wages and social function was better served (Health care for all permanent staff -10% corporation tax - benefits the staff and the NHS).

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 15 Jun 17 5.35pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Perhaps staffing levels at HMRC should be increased so that there's manpower to chase down evaders / avoiders.
How much would it cost to train and pay a tax person per year. 30-40k? How much tax are they likely to track down, alot more than that I'd chance.

HMRC and the IRS before them, when faced with the necessity to pursue evaders and avoiders, go after the small avoiders, because they number highly (and the people in charge of them push that agenda because it looks good in stats, and doesn't cause them to be chasing the people who donate large sums to political parties or their own bosses).

The problem with tax avoidance is like Benefit Fraud, they claim to be clamping down, and then just go after the people who are making a little bit here and there, rather than the people who are taxing the p*ss.

 


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