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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Stuk  Top half 13 Apr 16 2.00pm |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
Well.... David Cameron's "£9 million folly" arrived through my letter box yesterday. I'm tempted to send it back to Downing Street like many others are doing, but have given it a cursory glance/speed read and would comment.... It's not a leaflet it's a 16 page high quality booklet with 7 pages just consisting of a glossy photo and strapline. The production costs and postage could have been drastically reduced (to about £1 million in total) if the message was imparted using a 2 sided A4 leaflet delivered by a cheaper courier/distributor than Royal Mail. There is nothing new in the booklet, just the same tired arguments and blatant scaremongering that we are hearing every day. The biggest joke is the statement "We have a commitment to reduce EU red tape"..... well Mr Cameron you haven't done very well in reducing it so far have you? In fact his negotiating skills in trying to get the other 27 EU nations to agree to any of our demands has been pretty useless all round. Lets face it, being in the EU is as good for our country as participating in the Eurovision Song Contest.... the rest of Europe want us in but aren't going to let us win it. My conclusion about Cameron's booklet - total waste of money and full of guff. Edited by Hoof Hearted (13 Apr 2016 10.00am) The part that made me laugh the most was "Canada's deal with the EU will give limited access for services, it has so far been seven years in the making and is still not in force" Could that be because 29 separate countries all have to agree, instead of 2?
Optimistic as ever |
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 14 Apr 16 9.31am |
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Originally posted by dannyh
Nigel Farage is a dick, but Corbyn is a massive terrorist sympathising Grade a w***er. Anyway back to the EU: Over a quarter of a million people come to the UK every year from the EU, thats a city the size of Plymouth every year. With no extra help financially that growth is unsustainable. When we joined there were 9 member states there is now 28, most recently Romania Bulgaria and Croatia, five more that are being considered are Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Turkey. all with the same rights as other member states (think bail outs). Then imagine the chaos when our borders literally end on Syria's front doot step. We give approx 350,000,000 every week to the EU, we get about half back, the difference equates to one new NHS hospital per week, and what's more we have no control over how this money is spent. If there is a conflict between an EU member state's national law and EU law, then EU law trumps the national law. We have already been over ruled by the faceless EU bureaucrats on counter terrorism powers, immigration quotas, VAT, and prisoner voting. The new deal that Dodgy Dave has brokered means nothing, after the referendum, the EU can ignore it as it is NOT legally binding no matter what Jamie Martin might like to tell you. Whilst in the EU we CAN NOT negotiate our own trade deals with emerging economies like India China Brazil we have to wait for all the other 27 member states to scrutinise the deal and agree it. Why is every one so adamant you have to be in the EU to trade with it, you don't it's a completely fallacious argument, Switzerland is not in the EU and EXPORTS more to the EU than we do. In essence in business it's only the big banks (that constantly f*** us over) that want to remain in the EU. Small and medium sized firms don't want any part of the EU, they only Export about 6% to the EU but have to abide by all it's bureaucratic nonsense. The European union oor Common market (as it was called at its inception) was designed for trade purposes, not to decide our laws, our borders, our public services, or the rights of prisoners in the UK. It is not fit for purpose and we should leave now while we have the chance. Yes there are associated short term risks, however the long term benefits of free trade with non EU members are exponential compared to staying in a broken power crazed EU. Better ? Bit egotistical to bump my own post, however I have answered a certain Scottish socialist and have yet to get a rebuttal. Interesting ......
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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Kermit8  Hevon 14 Apr 16 9.49am |
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Originally posted by dannyh
Bit egotistical to bump my own post, however I have answered a certain Scottish socialist and have yet to get a rebuttal. Interesting ...... Patience, my good man, patience. I was/am planning to give it the effort and time in reply similar to that which you have put in out of courtesy rather than a rushed post. Tomorrow probably. Addressing your points it'll mostly be about actual impact in real terms of being in the EU and likely risks at exit. Edited by Kermit8 (14 Apr 2016 9.55am)
Big chest and massive boobs |
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| DanH SW2 14 Apr 16 10.31am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Patience, my good man, patience. I was/am planning to give it the effort and time in reply similar to that which you have put in out of courtesy rather than a rushed post. Tomorrow probably. Addressing your points it'll mostly be about actual impact in real terms of being in the EU and likely risks at exit. Edited by Kermit8 (14 Apr 2016 9.55am) Just call him a bum queen and be done with it.
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 14 Apr 16 10.51am |
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Originally posted by DanH
Just call him a bum queen and be done with it. Says the man in tight jeans and a man bun. Isn't loose women on ? careful you'll miss it.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| Hoof Hearted 14 Apr 16 11.02am | |
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So..... Jeremy Corbyn has read Cameron's £9 million leaflet and has changed his mind about the EU after 41 years (at least) of being a Euro Sceptic. He voted NO in 1975 and since then has spoken out about the bureaucracy, waste etc on a regular basis. Today he is going to make a speech confirming he and the Labour Party are firmly in the Remain camp. This is what the country thinks of Corbyn's opinions as measured by the device..... Edited by Hoof Hearted (14 Apr 2016 11.03am)
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Attachment: | jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Apr 16 11.23am |
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Originally posted by johnfirewall
Does anyone genuinely believe in having no borders or races? You are aware that would result in even fewer people running the whole world? My concern tends to be more with how we think about concepts such as nationality and race, and how these can often be absurd based on the actual reality, rather than the fantasy. Nothing wrong with some forms of nationalism, but when it becomes people making decisions specifically on the basis of their nationality, regardless of the consequences, it becomes very absurd. Also, race, scientifically has no basis - Its a flawed concept based on observation bias and convenience of discrimination (i.e. reducing large groups of people to a few physical characteristics - often for political reasons of using terms like all whites, all blacks, all Asians etc).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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leifandersonshair  Newport 14 Apr 16 12.34pm |
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Originally posted by johnfirewall
On Facebook an acquaintance asked for peoples Brexit views. Most replies were along the below lines: The Out campaign is dominated by Farage and racists This is basically what the left are going by. I've honestly never seen the same people acknowledge the money. Apart from in The Mirror who found an enormous group of 50 NHS staff that said it'd be better spent on hospitals. Even those who pluck out figures to say we'd be richer in Europe only do so as a footnote to the aforementioned reasons to stay. The most abusurd reason, genuinely given by a few people in response to that one Facebook post was that they would do the opposite of Cameron wants, but thought it may be a double-bluff. Edited by johnfirewall (14 Apr 2016 11.15am) To be fair, the Out camp seems to be defined by Farage. The best thing he could possibly do would be to stay indoors until July. If you're a UKIP supporter, you'll vote out anyway, regardless of any actual facts. If you're not, you are probably repulsed by Farage and his hard right, xenophobic ilk, and will vote In just on principle. It's same old, same old, and will be until June- the In camp will argue for the economic benefits (with the left chiming in about what the Tories would do to workers rights, the nasty swine), the Out camp will just be shouting 'TOO MANY FOREIGN PEOPLE' with the right adding that we will be better off economically. Probably. So their crystal ball and most recent horoscope has told them.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 14 Apr 16 12.49pm |
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Originally posted by leifandersonshair
the Out camp will just be shouting 'TOO MANY FOREIGN PEOPLE' with the right adding that we will be better off economically. Probably. More than half of net migration to the UK comes from the EU.More than 1/4 of a million people came to the UK from the EU in the 12 months to Sep 15, the equivelant of a city the size of Newcastle or Plymouth in just a year. We really need to stop the out of control migration system that means an "open door" to the EU while blocking people who could We really need to make it easier for some to come, such as scientists and job-creators, and
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| leifandersonshair Newport 14 Apr 16 9.42pm |
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Originally posted by Willo
More than half of net migration to the UK comes from the EU.More than 1/4 of a million people came to the UK from the EU in the 12 months to Sep 15, the equivelant of a city the size of Newcastle or Plymouth in just a year. We really need to stop the out of control migration system that means an "open door" to the EU while blocking people who could We really need to make it easier for some to come, such as scientists and job-creators, and See? You're doing exactly that! Far too complex an issue to be boiled down to a single issue (the economy on one side, immigration on the other) but thanks for proving my point.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 14 Apr 16 9.56pm |
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Originally posted by leifandersonshair
See? You're doing exactly that! Far too complex an issue to be boiled down to a single issue (the economy on one side, immigration on the other) but thanks for proving my point. I'm not questioning the complexity of the issues, I just passed comment on one of the issues and a major one at that.There are other important issues of course - I'm NOT a single issue campaigner !
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| crystal balls The Garden of Earthly Delights 14 Apr 16 10.02pm |
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Originally posted by Willo
I'm not questioning the complexity of the issues, I just passed comment on one of the issues and a major one at that.There are other important issues of course - I'm NOT a single issue campaigner ! Thing is though, we already have about as much control of borders as we will get, in or out. People still need passports to gain entry to the UK, if we leave the EU we'll still need to have free movement of people like the Swiss and Norwegians, so what's the point of leaving?
I used to be immortal |
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corkery  Cork City 14 Apr 16 10.11pm |
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With regard to immigration, they'll just head to Dublin, cross the border and get the ferry to Scotland.
We'll never die |
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 14 Apr 16 10.17pm |
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Originally posted by crystal balls
Thing is though, we already have about as much control of borders as we will get, in or out. People still need passports to gain entry to the UK, if we leave the EU we'll still need to have free movement of people like the Swiss and Norwegians, so what's the point of leaving? Nay, Nay and thrice Nay. The central tenet of the EU is the free movement of people so anyone from EU countries (Yes with a passport) can enter the EU without a visa, can work without needing a work permit and can reside as long as they like.We simply cannot control the numbers which we could do if we were out of the darned thing.The sheer number is out of control and there is precious little we can do whilst we are still in the EU. As I mentioned earlier over 1/4 million poured into the UK from the EU in the 12 months to Sep 15, the equivelant of a city the size of Newcastle or Plymouth. Edited by Willo (14 Apr 2016 10.17pm)
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| crystal balls The Garden of Earthly Delights 14 Apr 16 10.49pm |
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Originally posted by Willo
Nay, Nay and thrice Nay. The central tenet of the EU is the free movement of people so anyone from EU countries (Yes with a passport) can enter the EU without a visa, can work without needing a work permit and can reside as long as they like.We simply cannot control the numbers which we could do if we were out of the darned thing.The sheer number is out of control and there is precious little we can do whilst we are still in the EU. As I mentioned earlier over 1/4 million poured into the UK from the EU in the 12 months to Sep 15, the equivelant of a city the size of Newcastle or Plymouth. Edited by Willo (14 Apr 2016 10.17pm) But leaving the EU will not change the situation, no-one except Farago believes that (and I don't think he really does either) Most EU countries have free movement of people WITHOUT a passport; the UK doesn't. Therefore we have greater border controls in the UK at the moment. But quite a few countries outside the EU who wish to trade on preferential terms with the EU have to allow free movement of people to gain these terms. Why would the EU not require the same from the UK?
I used to be immortal |
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| legaleagle 14 Apr 16 11.33pm |
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Originally posted by crystal balls
Exactly.They would and we'd very likely have to cut the same deal as Norway and Switzerland had to,in order to get the benefits we would very much need of access to the free market in goods and services.Without that, a fair number of non European companies would relocate their European operations outside the UK.
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| djkfeirufgdfg Croydon 15 Apr 16 7.45am |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Exactly.They would and we'd very likely have to cut the same deal as Norway and Switzerland had to,in order to get the benefits we would very much need of access to the free market in goods and services.Without that, a fair number of non European companies would relocate their European operations outside the UK. But wouldn't that bring closer the glorious revolution and a socialist utopia?
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| Superfly The sun always shines in Catford 15 Apr 16 8.25am |
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Delwboy Been at it so long you couldn't even be aresd to think up a username
Lend me a Tenor 31 May to 3 June 2017 John McIntosh Arts Centre with Superfly in the chorus |
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haha - what a giveaway
| Kermit8 Hevon 15 Apr 16 10.07am |
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Originally posted by dannyh
Nigel Farage is a dick, but Corbyn is a massive terrorist sympathising Grade a w***er. Anyway back to the EU: Over a quarter of a million people come to the UK every year from the EU, thats a city the size of Plymouth every year. With no extra help financially that growth is unsustainable. When we joined there were 9 member states there is now 28, most recently Romania Bulgaria and Croatia, five more that are being considered are Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Turkey. all with the same rights as other member states (think bail outs). Then imagine the chaos when our borders literally end on Syria's front doot step. We give approx 350,000,000 every week to the EU, we get about half back, the difference equates to one new NHS hospital per week, and what's more we have no control over how this money is spent. If there is a conflict between an EU member state's national law and EU law, then EU law trumps the national law. We have already been over ruled by the faceless EU bureaucrats on counter terrorism powers, immigration quotas, VAT, and prisoner voting. The new deal that Dodgy Dave has brokered means nothing, after the referendum, the EU can ignore it as it is NOT legally binding no matter what Jamie Martin might like to tell you. Whilst in the EU we CAN NOT negotiate our own trade deals with emerging economies like India China Brazil we have to wait for all the other 27 member states to scrutinise the deal and agree it. Why is every one so adamant you have to be in the EU to trade with it, you don't it's a completely fallacious argument, Switzerland is not in the EU and EXPORTS more to the EU than we do. In essence in business it's only the big banks (that constantly f*** us over) that want to remain in the EU. Small and medium sized firms don't want any part of the EU, they only Export about 6% to the EU but have to abide by all it's bureaucratic nonsense. The European union oor Common market (as it was called at its inception) was designed for trade purposes, not to decide our laws, our borders, our public services, or the rights of prisoners in the UK. It is not fit for purpose and we should leave now while we have the chance. Yes there are associated short term risks, however the long term benefits of free trade with non EU members are exponential compared to staying in a broken power crazed EU. Better ? Ok here goes.. 67,000 Europeans came here without an immediate job to go to out of the hundreds of thousands in one recent year according to a report a few months back. How many got employment within a month or two i do not know but the figures tell us the vast majority are not a burden but do, in fact, work, pay taxes and help the UK generally. But, more importantly and in relation, the population of the UK is going to pass 70million over the next twenty years whether we are 'in' or 'out'. Loads of Plymouths. Sustainabilty is a real and presently serious issue but it something which goes beyond a Brexit. We need more hospitals but I keep seeing smaller ones being closed down. Totally agree with you re: bail outs. Giving the same credit rating to lower end economies and without due diligence was beneficial to Goldman Sachs but stupidly irresponsible, and possibly corrupt, by the EU suits. Hopefully, lessons will have been learned but I am not holding my breath. Beyond that it is important for the Balkan states to come aboard as, let's face it, a lot of world trouble has emanated from that lot. Common goals and economic interests will dilute the chances of any conflict and that will be good for the whole of Europe going into the future. The money we give to the EU we get back and more through the rebate and cheaper goods. It is estimated that for each £1 a UK family puts toward the EU budget they get £3 back via lower household bills because of our membership. The ones that get up peoples noses are a tiny minority. Their law is an ass sometimes but so is UK law and we don't threaten to leave our system and set up an entirely new judicial way because some acts are passed which are reprehensible: I'm looking at you 'Poll Tax'. We lobby from within for change. As we should with the EU. It may take a long time but pressure counts when backed by the masses and the right people. EU law itself is interpreted by the Court of Justice of the European Union. This is completely separate from the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, which interprets the European Convention on Human Rights. We can't ignore EU legislation but we can certainly challenge it. If there are doubts about the EU's legitimacy for making a particular piece of legislation because it does not meet a Treaty objective then national courts can suspend the domestic measures which implement it and an amendment will be made by an Act of Parliament. End of Part One. p.s btw Don't forget it was the Tories in the 70's, 80's and 90's that kept signing us up to this stoopid Euro thing Edited by Kermit8 (15 Apr 2016 10.30am)
Big chest and massive boobs |
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