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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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hedgehog50  Croydon 15 Mar 17 2.21pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Depends on what you mean by Communism. The Soviet and Sino tyranny are horrors of the 20th century on a par with the Nazi and Fascist states. But its a slim argument that they were even really remotely interested in achieving Communism, but rather about instigating a change of the ruling elite. If you just swap the 'capitalist / imperialist powers' for the 'Party' all you're achieving is renaming those with absolute power. Really, Soviet Communism is really just an atheist religion, in which the Party Chairman is a medival pope, with a different gospel of the truth protected by an inquistional body to root out and purge heretics. You can't just change the names of the oppressors, you have to deal with the situations of power that creates oppression, which means undermining your own power to control. Its where democracy kind of gets it right - It weakens the power of authority. Any regime that professes itself to be communist, or any state with 'Democratic Republic' in its name. Edited by hedgehog50 (15 Mar 2017 2.28pm)
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 15 Mar 17 3.16pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Any regime that professes itself to be communist, or any state with 'Democratic Republic' in its name. Edited by hedgehog50 (15 Mar 2017 2.28pm) Yeah they were really all about the delivery of the power into the hands of the people. Like Lennin before them, they may have like to present themselves as Communists, but the only thing they were interested in was their own glory and power. Just like Hitler who professed to be all about the German People, but really it was just his ideal view of the German people that just so happened to be all about power and control over the people by absolute means.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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 steeleye20 Croydon 15 Mar 17 3.31pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yeah they were really all about the delivery of the power into the hands of the people. Like Lennin before them, they may have like to present themselves as Communists, but the only thing they were interested in was their own glory and power. Just like Hitler who professed to be all about the German People, but really it was just his ideal view of the German people that just so happened to be all about power and control over the people by absolute means. 'Like Lennin' you don't mark exam papers do you? Must be the Watford game control yourself...... Thanks for the 'just like Hitler' as he has not been on anywhere today although he had a unique take on Dutch elections
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 15 Mar 17 3.47pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yeah they were really all about the delivery of the power into the hands of the people. Like Lennin before them, they may have like to present themselves as Communists, but the only thing they were interested in was their own glory and power. Just like Hitler who professed to be all about the German People, but really it was just his ideal view of the German people that just so happened to be all about power and control over the people by absolute means. Of course Lenin, Stalin and Mao were sincere communists. They implemented textbook Marxist ideas; all means of production, distribution and exchange in the hands of the state and the dictatorship of the proletariat (ie: government by terror). They sincerely believed the lunatic ideas of Marx would actually work. Of course as it became increasing clear that communism did not work, they increased the terror. Edited by hedgehog50 (15 Mar 2017 3.49pm)
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 15 Mar 17 4.01pm |
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Whilst accepting the result of the referendum, the lot carrying it through don't fill me with much confidence. No plans as yet for a no Deal scenario. Mind we're only a few months in!
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 15 Mar 17 4.06pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Of course Lenin, Stalin and Mao were sincere communists. They implemented textbook Marxist ideas; all means of production, distribution and exchange in the hands of the state and the dictatorship of the proletariat (ie: government by terror). They sincerely believed the lunatic ideas of Marx would actually work. Of course as it became increasing clear that communism did not work, they increased the terror. Edited by hedgehog50 (15 Mar 2017 3.49pm) I think this is where we differ, I think they believed they could utilise concepts from Marx to build their own new world, in which they would usher in a new world forged in their image, at any cost (in human life and misery) and that this had to occur 'immediately', and without question.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 15 Mar 17 4.16pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think this is where we differ, I think they believed they could utilise concepts from Marx to build their own new world, in which they would usher in a new world forged in their image, at any cost (in human life and misery) and that this had to occur 'immediately', and without question. Surely you accept that they abolished capitalism under their regimes and implemented communist economics and policies.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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 Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 15 Mar 17 5.13pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
'Like Lennin' you don't mark exam papers do you? Must be the Watford game control yourself...... Thanks for the 'just like Hitler' as he has not been on anywhere today although he had a unique take on Dutch elections You are clearly unacquainted with Jamie's refreshingly creative application of orthography.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 15 Mar 17 5.15pm |
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Originally posted by Cucking Funt
You are clearly unacquainted with Jamie's refreshingly creative application of orthography. Precisely. He was talking about Lennon.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 15 Mar 17 5.21pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Whilst accepting the result of the referendum, the lot carrying it through don't fill me with much confidence. No plans as yet for a no Deal scenario. Mind we're only a few months in! They'll take the bankers offer.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 15 Mar 17 5.22pm |
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Originally posted by Cucking Funt
You are clearly unacquainted with Jamie's refreshingly creative application of orthography. Indeed, spelling is for witches and benders.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 15 Mar 17 8.35pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
If Article 50 is not signed that will save the union. An election should be called on that basis that it was necessary to save the union. Still a tory win people are dreading brexit but cannot admit it. Yet more tories we can't have everything. Article 50 will be invoked. There will not be a General Election. You are lumbered with a Conservative government until 2020 at the earliest so you're just going to have to conjour up some other hopeless cause to talk bollocks about. Edited by Cucking Funt (15 Mar 2017 8.35pm)
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 15 Mar 17 9.06pm |
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Be ironic if UKIP were ultimately behind the break up of the United Kingdom.
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| Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 15 Mar 17 9.14pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Be ironic if UKIP were ultimately behind the break up of the United Kingdom. I don't really think UKIP matter any more. Mission accomplished from their point of view. Anything else now is just waffling, lost in the noise of c*ntf*cker politicians generally.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 16 Mar 17 10.18am |
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Originally posted by Cucking Funt
I don't really think UKIP matter any more. Mission accomplished from their point of view. Anything else now is just waffling, lost in the noise of c*ntf*cker politicians generally. I think that's true of some of their members, particually the founders, but it seems in recent years they've been expanding out from the UK Independence from Europe, into a wider political spectrum. But arguably, yes, job done, and I think that's why their head man stepped down (again). I think feasibly its 'job done' for him (regardless of the fall out). I suspect they'll struggle now, Farage's charisma and political savy was quite extensive. Whether the new leadership can manage to replicate that is a big ask.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 16 Mar 17 10.19am |
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Originally posted by Cucking Funt
I don't really think UKIP matter any more. Mission accomplished from their point of view. Anything else now is just waffling, lost in the noise of c*ntf*cker politicians generally. I think the Union is largely irrelevant to most peoples lives. I think they tend to see it in very subjective terms.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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 Hrolf The Ganger 16 Mar 17 10.34am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think that's true of some of their members, particually the founders, but it seems in recent years they've been expanding out from the UK Independence from Europe, into a wider political spectrum. But arguably, yes, job done, and I think that's why their head man stepped down (again). I think feasibly its 'job done' for him (regardless of the fall out). I suspect they'll struggle now, Farage's charisma and political savy was quite extensive. Whether the new leadership can manage to replicate that is a big ask. UKIP must campaign on wider issues if they want to survive but all the time we are subjected to the yin of the loopy left, liberal whine, we will have the yang of right wing dismay.
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 16 Mar 17 10.42am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think the Union is largely irrelevant to most peoples lives. I think they tend to see it in very subjective terms. I think that's true. I would be quite happy if we were separate countries.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 16 Mar 17 11.52am |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
I think that's true. I would be quite happy if we were separate countries. They'll be f**ked. The SNP has a rather easy situation, as its only opponents are the Scottish Labour party, and they beat it by simply appealing to its core base, whilst New Labour were busy f**king over their core base. Free Prescriptions and Tuition Fees were a relatively easy price to pay, and they hold significant seats in the UK parliament whilst still retaining the easy of being 'opposition' (i.e. never having to deliver). If they actually had to run a country, as an independent state, then they'd be accountable for their failures (rather than blaming the UK Government) and also have to rationalise their economic spending according to Scottish Tax Revenue. Problem with Nationalist movements, is they tend to make good opposition parties but very poor governments.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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