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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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JohnyBoy Flag 26 Apr 16 11.58am

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

Interesting to hear Frank Field talking on R4 Today Programme savagely criticising Corbyn for supporting 'Remain' when we all know he has been one of the fiercest critics of the EU for 40 years at least.

[Link]

The Remain camp really has got some dross backing their campaign... a bunch of hypocrites, liars and no hopers.

Apart from Corbyn they have Blair - the man responsible for the 'Polish Invasion' by not enforcing the 7 year waiting period that Germany and other nations imposed which has led to an increase from 75,000 living here in 2004 to currently more than 500,000 now.

Cameron - up until he called the referendum he didn't have a good word to say about the EU... I can remember him and Osborne going ballistic about the £1.8M surcharge imposed on us a year or so back because our economy was doing well.

Merkel, Hollande etc... this lot wants us to remain as it suits them not us!

They don't want us to leave and are only interested in preserving the status quo... the french farmers and german car manufacturers are major exporters to the UK. Imagine the ear bashing they will give their government if a deal with the UK wasn't quickly resolved? They need us more than we need them!

Obama - what a hypocrite! There is no way he would stand by like Cameron has and let the EU push us around AND fork out a Queen's ransom every week as a fee for the privilege!

The EU in it's earliest form as a common market with a handful of like minded equal economies was a good idea but it has snowballed out of all proportion and is unworkable in it's present form. The likelihood that Turkey and other smaller nations with economic problems will join the EU should start alarm bells ringing in every sensible UK citizen living here (legally!) today.

If you think it's difficult to buy a house, go the doctor or hospital, get your kid in a local school, get a job, avoid traffic congestion, find some green space to relax etc.... all of these things will become impossible to achieve as millions more economic migrants arrive looking to live the dream.

People always ignore the practical problems though and are hoodwinked into thinking it's all about the economy.

The politicians can and will escape the practical hardships the rest of us will endure when the UK population is north of 80 Million. Their lifestyles will be safe and secure and a lot more lavish than we can dream of.

Wake up... those of you still considering to vote to remain. Unless you are in the top 5% of richest people living in the UK, you will be making your future lives (and those of your children) a living misery.


Sorry but this is just the biggest load of rubbish i have ever read.
The fact is if we left the eu we would still be massive contributors to its budget, Norway contributes nearly as much per head as the UK does and has to allow full freedom of movement through its borders, but is excluded from eu decision making. Apparently 29% of British citizens do not want to take a single more Syrian refugee (which i believe is shameful) but both Norway and Switzerland have been 'compelled' to take more refugees than us by the EU and UN.
The only country to ever leave the EU was Greenland which is effectively made up of a single industry - fishing. It took 3 years to negotiate a trade deal on fishing and yep you guessed it they have to allow full movement of EU people and pay the EU. Importantly after 2 years the rules stated they had to revert to WTO agreed tarrifs on all goods, negatively impacting the Greenland consumer by 20% on everything they bought. It would be atleast 10 maybe 20 years to negotiate trade deals for a much more complex economy like the uk.
What about unelected eu people making undemocratic decisions i hear the out campaign crying. I live in Sussex and next thursday my middle kid's nursery is closed for an election to elect a police commissioner. Ffs i already vote in a general election, local election and eu elections. I accept these people will make good appointments on my behalf and appoint specialist (incl non political people) to the right jobs.
There are apparently equal numbers of eu migrants in the uk as there are living in the eu - the truth is those that come to the uk are usually young contributors to the tax system whereas the majority of brits living in the eu are retired people (non tax contributors) who are often more likely to use state services e.g healthcare. Of the approx 250k eu migrants that came to the uk last year all but 63k had jobs to come to and most of the 63k had found jobs within 3 months i.e. they became tax contributors to the uk economy which resultantly grew 2.8% in 2014. The truth is they are NET CONTRIBUTORS to the economy generally not a strain on our hospitals or benefits as the out campaign would have you believe. To improve public services we need more net contributors or taxes to rise, both opposed by the right wing i.e. they want their cake and eat it.
Lastly i am inceasingly of the opinion having seen a lot of posts from out campaigners that the distortions and misinformation they are peddling is based on a distorted sense of British identity and worryingly a deep sense of
Prejedice. The truth is staying within the eu will not take away any of our famous British identity or institutions, landmarks or any of the other things that identify us as British - we will not live happily in an isolated uptopian Britain which the out campaign would have us believe. Whilst i agree with Teresa May (although i disagree with her opposition to withdrawing from the human rights act) that we would still function as an economy outside the eu, we have to accept we would be a whole lot poorer, less influential (in terms of decisions we would have to accept from the EU), less safe and give us and our childrens children far less life opportunities.

 

Stuk Flag Top half 26 Apr 16 1.05pm

Originally posted by JohnyBoy


Sorry but this is just the biggest load of rubbish i have ever read.
The fact is if we left the eu we would still be massive contributors to its budget, Norway contributes nearly as much per head as the UK does and has to allow full freedom of movement through its borders, but is excluded from eu decision making. Apparently 29% of British citizens do not want to take a single more Syrian refugee (which i believe is shameful) but both Norway and Switzerland have been 'compelled' to take more refugees than us by the EU and UN.
The only country to ever leave the EU was Greenland which is effectively made up of a single industry - fishing. It took 3 years to negotiate a trade deal on fishing and yep you guessed it they have to allow full movement of EU people and pay the EU. Importantly after 2 years the rules stated they had to revert to WTO agreed tarrifs on all goods, negatively impacting the Greenland consumer by 20% on everything they bought. It would be atleast 10 maybe 20 years to negotiate trade deals for a much more complex economy like the uk.
What about unelected eu people making undemocratic decisions i hear the out campaign crying. I live in Sussex and next thursday my middle kid's nursery is closed for an election to elect a police commissioner. Ffs i already vote in a general election, local election and eu elections. I accept these people will make good appointments on my behalf and appoint specialist (incl non political people) to the right jobs.
There are apparently equal numbers of eu migrants in the uk as there are living in the eu - the truth is those that come to the uk are usually young contributors to the tax system whereas the majority of brits living in the eu are retired people (non tax contributors) who are often more likely to use state services e.g healthcare. Of the approx 250k eu migrants that came to the uk last year all but 63k had jobs to come to and most of the 63k had found jobs within 3 months i.e. they became tax contributors to the uk economy which resultantly grew 2.8% in 2014. The truth is they are NET CONTRIBUTORS to the economy generally not a strain on our hospitals or benefits as the out campaign would have you believe. To improve public services we need more net contributors or taxes to rise, both opposed by the right wing i.e. they want their cake and eat it.
Lastly i am inceasingly of the opinion having seen a lot of posts from out campaigners that the distortions and misinformation they are peddling is based on a distorted sense of British identity and worryingly a deep sense of
Prejedice. The truth is staying within the eu will not take away any of our famous British identity or institutions, landmarks or any of the other things that identify us as British - we will not live happily in an isolated uptopian Britain which the out campaign would have us believe. Whilst i agree with Teresa May (although i disagree with her opposition to withdrawing from the human rights act) that we would still function as an economy outside the eu, we have to accept we would be a whole lot poorer, less influential (in terms of decisions we would have to accept from the EU), less safe and give us and our childrens children far less life opportunities.

Stop assuming that we would sign up to the same agreements. We are not obliged to do anything if we vote out, it's all negotiable.

Greenland was never in the EU and is, quite frankly, a ridiculous country to try and compare us to.

 


Optimistic as ever

npn Flag Crowborough 26 Apr 16 1.29pm

Originally posted by JohnyBoy


Sorry but this is just the biggest load of rubbish i have ever read.
The fact is if we left the eu we would still be massive contributors to its budget, Norway contributes nearly as much per head as the UK does and has to allow full freedom of movement through its borders, but is excluded from eu decision making. Apparently 29% of British citizens do not want to take a single more Syrian refugee (which i believe is shameful) but both Norway and Switzerland have been 'compelled' to take more refugees than us by the EU and UN.
The only country to ever leave the EU was Greenland which is effectively made up of a single industry - fishing. It took 3 years to negotiate a trade deal on fishing and yep you guessed it they have to allow full movement of EU people and pay the EU. Importantly after 2 years the rules stated they had to revert to WTO agreed tarrifs on all goods, negatively impacting the Greenland consumer by 20% on everything they bought. It would be atleast 10 maybe 20 years to negotiate trade deals for a much more complex economy like the uk.
What about unelected eu people making undemocratic decisions i hear the out campaign crying. I live in Sussex and next thursday my middle kid's nursery is closed for an election to elect a police commissioner. Ffs i already vote in a general election, local election and eu elections. I accept these people will make good appointments on my behalf and appoint specialist (incl non political people) to the right jobs.
There are apparently equal numbers of eu migrants in the uk as there are living in the eu - the truth is those that come to the uk are usually young contributors to the tax system whereas the majority of brits living in the eu are retired people (non tax contributors) who are often more likely to use state services e.g healthcare. Of the approx 250k eu migrants that came to the uk last year all but 63k had jobs to come to and most of the 63k had found jobs within 3 months i.e. they became tax contributors to the uk economy which resultantly grew 2.8% in 2014. The truth is they are NET CONTRIBUTORS to the economy generally not a strain on our hospitals or benefits as the out campaign would have you believe. To improve public services we need more net contributors or taxes to rise, both opposed by the right wing i.e. they want their cake and eat it.
Lastly i am inceasingly of the opinion having seen a lot of posts from out campaigners that the distortions and misinformation they are peddling is based on a distorted sense of British identity and worryingly a deep sense of
Prejedice. The truth is staying within the eu will not take away any of our famous British identity or institutions, landmarks or any of the other things that identify us as British - we will not live happily in an isolated uptopian Britain which the out campaign would have us believe. Whilst i agree with Teresa May (although i disagree with her opposition to withdrawing from the human rights act) that we would still function as an economy outside the eu, we have to accept we would be a whole lot poorer, less influential (in terms of decisions we would have to accept from the EU), less safe and give us and our childrens children far less life opportunities.

No there aren't - it's not even close! Best figures I can get are about 1.2 million Brits living in the EU, approximately 3 million the other way. Most reliable I can find (ONS) says net migration (2015) was an additional 172,000 in the year (257,000 arrivals, 85,000 departures)

You mention misinformation being peddled (which is what frustrates me about the campaign), and then do exactly the same thing to support your argument.

For what it's worth, I lean towards remain, but my summary of the campaign so far:
Remain: lies, scare stories, made up statistics, worst case hypothetical examples
Leave: bent bananas, taking our jobs and our women, inundated with refugees and immigrants

Infuriating on both sides, and they are as bad as each other

Edited by npn (26 Apr 2016 1.29pm)

 

JohnyBoy Flag 26 Apr 16 1.38pm

Originally posted by npn

No there aren't - it's not even close! Best figures I can get are about 1.2 million Brits living in the EU, approximately 3 million the other way. Most reliable I can find (ONS) says net migration (2015) was an additional 172,000 in the year (257,000 arrivals, 85,000 departures)

You mention misinformation being peddled (which is what frustrates me about the campaign), and then do exactly the same thing to support your argument.

For what it's worth, I lean towards remain, but my summary of the campaign so far:
Remain: lies, scare stories, made up statistics, worst case hypothetical examples
Leave: bent bananas, taking our jobs and our women, inundated with refugees and immigrants

Infuriating on both sides, and they are as bad as each other

Edited by npn (26 Apr 2016 1.29pm)


my source is The Economist - would suggest you google harder

 

fed up eagle Flag Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 26 Apr 16 1.46pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Boris Johnson as Conservative Leader would be their Corbyn - someone who is a 'Hail Mary' success following a couple of lost elections and massively disgruntled political base or a total disaster.

Its very hard for people to understand just how unpopular New Labour was among the Trade Unionists, Labour Back Benches and Labour Party members (who left in their droves during Blair and Brown). Corbyn, whilst unpopular with a lot of the media and Conservative voters, represents to many traditional labour voters, someone akin to Farage (someone who addresses many of their issues).

New Labour was never popular with Labour members, supporters and the general left - UKIP, the Liberal Democrats and the Greens had all prospered from the shift to the right of centre that was New Labour.

Corbyn more or less represents a lot of those disgruntled people effectively betrayed by New Labour.

I don't disagree with you on that one Jamie. I guess it highlights the lack of talent in British politics these days. Actually your whole post is correct I feel.

Edited by fed up eagle (26 Apr 2016 1.48pm)

 

npn Flag Crowborough 26 Apr 16 1.50pm

Originally posted by JohnyBoy


my source is The Economist - would suggest you google harder

so - The Economist versus the ONS - close run race for lack of bias

 

JohnyBoy Flag 26 Apr 16 1.55pm

we all have our sources and all can be criticised for what they include/exclude including the ONS - but if you insists that only your sources are correct and everyone else's are wrong then you are therefore ofcourse right..... (incidentally the Economist uses the ONS numbers in its calculations....)

Originally posted by npn

so - The Economist versus the ONS - close run race for lack of bias

 

npn Flag Crowborough 26 Apr 16 1.56pm

Originally posted by JohnyBoy

we all have our sources and all can be criticised for what they include/exclude including the ONS - but if you insists that only your sources are correct and everyone else's are wrong then you are therefore ofcourse right..... (incidentally the Economist uses the ONS numbers in its calculations....)

chuck a link up, and I'll happily have a read!

 

Stuk Flag Top half 26 Apr 16 1.56pm

The UN say 1.2m out v 3.0m in.

On top of that the EU migrants that come here have much higher birth rates than UK migrants in the EU.

 


Optimistic as ever

npn Flag Crowborough 26 Apr 16 1.59pm

Originally posted by Stuk

The UN say 1.2m out v 3.0m in.

On top of that the EU migrants that come here have much higher birth rates than UK migrants in the EU.

Funny that - seems to agree with me and the ONS, but hey, that's just one opinion, apparently, and no more valid than any other - Google harder!

 

elgrande Flag bedford 26 Apr 16 2.50pm

This is something that has always bugged me.....net migration bollocks,when they count people leaving,is this British passport holders or EU passports holders.
Or people who came obtained a British passport, then went back home.
Can any one shed some figures on this.

 


always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

npn Flag Crowborough 26 Apr 16 2.55pm

Originally posted by elgrande

This is something that has always bugged me.....net migration bollocks,when they count people leaving,is this British passport holders or EU passports holders.
Or people who came obtained a British passport, then went back home.
Can any one shed some figures on this.

For the purposes of the figures, once you have a British passport, you're British (which is fair enough)

 

JohnyBoy Flag 26 Apr 16 2.58pm

Originally posted by elgrande

This is something that has always bugged me.....net migration bollocks,when they count people leaving,is this British passport holders or EU passports holders.
Or people who came obtained a British passport, then went back home.
Can any one shed some figures on this.

The truth is we cant honestly shed light on it. As mentioned previously include/exclude and periodicity (single year or averages) can throw up very different results...and specically there is no accurate figures that i am aware of that separates out British or non british eu passports

 

elgrande Flag bedford 26 Apr 16 3.13pm

Originally posted by JohnyBoy

The truth is we cant honestly shed light on it. As mentioned previously include/exclude and periodicity (single year or averages) can throw up very different results...and specically there is no accurate figures that i am aware of that separates out British or non british eu passports

So in other words,its all speculation to whom leaves the country then.

 


always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.

JohnyBoy Flag 26 Apr 16 3.21pm

Originally posted by elgrande

So in other words,its all speculation to whom leaves the country then.

Yip

 

fed up eagle Flag Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 26 Apr 16 4.16pm

Originally posted by elgrande

So in other words,its all speculation to whom leaves the country then.

Nobody really has a clue do they? It's totally out of control. You go through London these days and it feels like a foreign city to me. What annoys me the most is how can these cnuts afford to live in London when most of us have to move out to the shires or even further a field? If they're rich and earning their own cash fair enough, but you can't help but think they're being subsidised by tax payers money, which if the case is bloody outrageous. It can't continue like this either way, the country is fast losing it's identity and we just don't need most of these people here. If they want to make a great life for themselves let them do it elsewhere and not at our expense. Of course the remain campaign hate everything English and disdainfully dismiss genuine concerns. They were creaming their pants about what Obama said, gleefully lapping up everything he said like a pussy lapping up it's milk. We'll be better out and we can regain control of our own borders and hopefully kick out most of the immigrants that just don't add anything to this country.
Let's also replace our membership of the ECHR with a more commonsense British bill of rights that punishes the criminals and protects the victims, no more human rights based stupidity. It ain't gonna happen though let's be honest

Edited by fed up eagle (26 Apr 2016 4.17pm)

 

Hoof Hearted 26 Apr 16 5.30pm

Originally posted by JohnyBoy


my source is The Economist - would suggest you google harder

I suggest you think for yourself young man.... stop googling and use your own brain.

The UK isn't Switzerland, Norway, Canada or Greenland.

We are a much bigger player - 5th largest economy in the world and can carve out our own deals to suit our needs not everybody elses.

But you clearly didn't understand the message I was giving out.

It's not about the economy.... it's what life will be like in the UK when we are swamped with further EU migrants in about 10 years time when Turkey and the other new EU members come onboard.

I don't know about you but I'm finding it all a tad crowded now... what's it going to be like (especially in the South East/London) with another 10 Million added to our population.

 

JohnyBoy Flag 26 Apr 16 5.42pm

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

I suggest you think for yourself young man.... stop googling and use your own brain.

The UK isn't Switzerland, Norway, Canada or Greenland.

We are a much bigger player - 5th largest economy in the world and can carve out our own deals to suit our needs not everybody elses.

But you clearly didn't understand the message I was giving out.

It's not about the economy.... it's what life will be like in the UK when we are swamped with further EU migrants in about 10 years time when Turkey and the other new EU members come onboard.

I don't know about you but I'm finding it all a tad crowded now... what's it going to be like (especially in the South East/London) with another 10 Million added to our population.

Ok if its not about the economy or for that matter defence policy or public services, is my last observation correct (which hasnt been googled) that the out campaign is really based on a distorted sense of British nationalism and more worryingly a deep sense of personal prejudice........tell me it aint so Hoof?

 

Hoof Hearted 27 Apr 16 11.06am

Originally posted by JohnyBoy

Ok if its not about the economy or for that matter defence policy or public services, is my last observation correct (which hasnt been googled) that the out campaign is really based on a distorted sense of British nationalism and more worryingly a deep sense of personal prejudice........tell me it aint so Hoof?

That's simple to answer... of course it isn't.

It's about trying to stop people trying to fit a quart into a pint pot.

It's also about quality of life.... the UK economy may well do better in the future under EU stewardship, but it won't be much fun living here packed in like sardines with no open green spaces to enjoy and the roads gridlocked as you try to find a dentist, doctor or hospital... drive miles to the only school you could get your kid in despite there being one right on your doorstep, but others got there first?

We can operate an immigration policy like Australia does... controlling the candidates we actually need on a points based system according to skills set, health, probity, honesty etc. We wouldn't have to accept millions travelling here, driving down wages, putting an unbearable strain on housing, NHS, Schools etc as I outlined above under the EU freedom of movement directive.

Finally... we need better negotiators than Cameron/Osborne based on their defeatist rhetoric during this campaign and the pathetic attempts previously to get concessions from the EU.

We are a major economy and world players... other nations associate the Union Jack with quality and good value for money. They would all find it easier to negotiate with just the UK rather than as part of the EU. In fact they will queuing up to do business with us... rather than the ridiculous notion of putting us at the back of the queue Mr President!

 

fed up eagle Flag Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 27 Apr 16 11.48am

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

That's simple to answer... of course it isn't.

It's about trying to stop people trying to fit a quart into a pint pot.

It's also about quality of life.... the UK economy may well do better in the future under EU stewardship, but it won't be much fun living here packed in like sardines with no open green spaces to enjoy and the roads gridlocked as you try to find a dentist, doctor or hospital... drive miles to the only school you could get your kid in despite there being one right on your doorstep, but others got there first?

We can operate an immigration policy like Australia does... controlling the candidates we actually need on a points based system according to skills set, health, probity, honesty etc. We wouldn't have to accept millions travelling here, driving down wages, putting an unbearable strain on housing, NHS, Schools etc as I outlined above under the EU freedom of movement directive.

Finally... we need better negotiators than Cameron/Osborne based on their defeatist rhetoric during this campaign and the pathetic attempts previously to get concessions from the EU.

We are a major economy and world players... other nations associate the Union Jack with quality and good value for money. They would all find it easier to negotiate with just the UK rather than as part of the EU. In fact they will queuing up to do business with us... rather than the ridiculous notion of putting us at the back of the queue Mr President!

I agree with this. We were great before, we're not bad now and we'll be even better when we stand on our own two feet. With the EU we are drowning in regulation and red tape, not to mention a great deal of apathy towards it.
It's just complete madness that we can't control our own borders. I bet not many people voted for mass immigration. And if you think it's bad now just wait until Turkey join. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm all for bringing skilled workers in to this country, but we should not let people here who intend not to work or add nothing. We have enough of our own shirkers and layabouts. Why do we need to let Roma gypsies in for Christ's sakes??
I'm voting out and it's got nothing to do with swivel eyed nationalism and little Englander, that's just b0ll0x.
Nobody voted for being ruled by faceless beurocrats who are totally out of touch with reality. There's nothing wrong with wanting to keep this great countries identity.

Edited by fed up eagle (27 Apr 2016 12.00pm)

 

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