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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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Username Flag Horsham 28 Jun 17 1.38pm

Originally posted by Hansy

It's about coming to an agreement. A reasonable deal for both sides. Sometimes you have to be difficult to get a good deal. A side might think X is a good deal, but the other side might think this benefits the otherside more.

The Tories haven't acted like that in negotiations. The only thing we have seen is TM's proposal, we haven't seen anything Davis has been proposing etc. So how do you know they are demanding?

I don't disagree, but I just don't think you start off that way. You go into it wanting to work together, but knowing that later you might have to get tougher. I don't think you talk about being bloody difficult or having your senior ministers talking about having our cake and eating it etc.

 

Employee of the month is a good example of how someone can be both a winner and a loser at the same time.
CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 28 Jun 17 1.49pm

Originally posted by Username

I don't disagree, but I just don't think you start off that way. You go into it wanting to work together, but knowing that later you might have to get tougher. I don't think you talk about being bloody difficult or having your senior ministers talking about having our cake and eating it etc.

Quite right. They've made a hash of it from day 1.

 
Hansy Flag 28 Jun 17 1.53pm

Where have they been difficult though? Because May's Rights proposals were different to the EU? Or because of the time it has taken for each side to sit down?

Proposals from each side are going to be different, that is why it is called a proposal. It's taken it's time due to the Tories wanting a larger mandate so they don't have to appease those on the right (Which they failed to do). EU also gave them a date to start. It's also the first time this has ever happened, it's a new process for both Britain and the EU.

A crap example, but still works. If you are buying a house or car, you are not going to tell the agent you will pay the full price to then say I will pay 20% less. You are not going to give them an idea of your offer until you talk about the product/s.

Edited by Hansy (28 Jun 2017 2.00pm)

 
CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 28 Jun 17 1.59pm

Originally posted by Hansy

Where have they been difficult though? Because May's Rights proposals were different to the EU? Or because of the time it has taken for each side to sit down?

Proposals from each side are going to be different, that is why it is called a proposal. It's taken it's time due to the Tories wanting a larger mandate so they don't have to appease those on the right (Which they failed to do). EU also gave them a date to start.

A crap example, but still works. If you are buying a house or car, you are not going to tell the agent you will pay the full price to then say I will pay 20% less. You are not going to give them an idea of your offer until you talk about the product/s.

Edited by Hansy (28 Jun 2017 1.54pm)

Remind me of the rule that says proposals have to differ...

 
Hansy Flag 28 Jun 17 2.01pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Remind me of the rule that says proposals have to differ...

So all proposals are going to be the same?

Stop trying to play on my words, some proposals might be the same, some will differ. Not all are going to be the same though. That is why they are called a proposal. Note - I didn't say ALL proposals will be different.

Edited by Hansy (28 Jun 2017 2.06pm)

 
Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 28 Jun 17 2.02pm

Originally posted by Hansy

Where have they been difficult though? Because May's Rights proposals were different to the EU? Or because of the time it has taken for each side to sit down?

Proposals from each side are going to be different, that is why it is called a proposal. It's taken it's time due to the Tories wanting a larger mandate so they don't have to appease those on the right (Which they failed to do). EU also gave them a date to start.

A crap example, but still works. If you are buying a house or car, you are not going to tell the agent you will pay the full price to then say I will pay 20% less. You are not going to give them an idea of your offer until you talk about the product/s.

Edited by Hansy (28 Jun 2017 1.54pm)

Made me laugh recently on QT. Outspoken woman who speaks her mi d in the audience said to Gina Miller that she wouldn't let everyone know her intentions before going into negotiate a business deal.

Miller said she'd do a cost benefit analysis.

Woman in audience said something like ''Well you wouldn't broadcast it or have the other side know about it.''

Miller was probably secretly glad of the noise so she didn't have to give a reply she didn't have. Noise from both sides of the audience, started by the remainers.

We're stuck between citizens wanting to know how negotiations are going to affect them and needing to not show your hand before negotiations. That argument could go on for as long as before the deal has been made.

 

COYP
Hansy Flag 28 Jun 17 2.05pm

I truly believe some parts of the negotiations will be made public, both positive and negative discussions. The EU will try and put a negative view on it no matter what. They won't want any other country going through the same process.

 
CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 28 Jun 17 2.10pm

Originally posted by Hansy

So all proposals are going to be the same?

Stop trying to play on my words, some proposals might be the same, some will differ. Not all are going to be the same though. That is why they are called a proposal. Note - I didn't say ALL proposals will be different.

Edited by Hansy (28 Jun 2017 2.06pm)

You said they would be different, which is why they were called proposals, implying all proposals differ. I just thought that it was possible some proposals could be the same.

 
Hansy Flag 28 Jun 17 2.11pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

You said they would be different, which is why they were called proposals, implying all proposals differ. I just thought that it was possible some proposals could be the same.

Read my reply to you, I never said ALL proposals. I said proposals.

 
Islington Eagle Flag North of the River 28 Jun 17 2.12pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

NatCen survey shows that Britain is more Eurosceptic than ever: In the aftermath of the Referendum the public has become more sceptical about the EU than ever before. Three in four (75%) feel that Britain should either leave the EU or that if it stays the EU’s powers should be reduced - up from 65% in 2015. Only one in five favoured the status quo or EU expansion.

[Link]

Edited by hedgehog50 (28 Jun 2017 12.58pm)

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting read.
If anyone has 20 minutes to spare the chapter on Brexit is very informative.
The conclusion is very striking; that most people that voted for Brexit were either Uneducated, Old, right wing or racist (and a combination thereof) and mostly had no idea what they were voting for.

 

Palace Fan
Hansy Flag 28 Jun 17 2.21pm

And this is the art of negotiations.

[Link]

The EU wanting ECJ jurisdiction for EU rights in the UK. Whilst UK rights in the EU would also fall under the ECJ. An independent body will be formed instead to keep this fair.

Michel Barnier - 'the rights in the withdrawal agreement will need to be directly enforceable and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice maintained".'

 
davenotamonkey Flag 28 Jun 17 3.10pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Quite right. They've made a hash of it from day 1.

Indeed. Insisting "Brexit can never be a success", threatening punishment beatings of €40-100bn, rebuffing TWICE the offer to take citizens out of the equation entirely, leaking meetings to the press to undermine the authority of and question the competency of the other side.

A fantastic demonstration of why it is essential we leave. An equally fantastic demonstration of the utter one-sidedness of those that would prefer to see our country screwed in these negotiations just to point and laugh at the Tories. Pathetic tribalists.

I hope people see through the press dressing this up as UK incompetence and ineptitude. Better what we have now than "concede early, concede often" Labour wrecking the whole process.

So, I'll put up with you lot whining on here, denigrating UK efforts and generally acting as 5th columnists safe in the knowledge that, thankfully, the levers of power are out of your hands, and it's all you've got.

 
Hansy Flag 28 Jun 17 3.13pm

I think that article from the BBC boosted what you are saying Dave. It also shows that the EU can be removed from the driving seat from demanding certain things, to then being open to change when the UK proposed nothing. - Regarding the ECJ jurisdiction.

 
davenotamonkey Flag 28 Jun 17 3.16pm

Originally posted by Hansy

Where have they been difficult though? Because May's Rights proposals were different to the EU? Or because of the time it has taken for each side to sit down?

Proposals from each side are going to be different, that is why it is called a proposal. It's taken it's time due to the Tories wanting a larger mandate so they don't have to appease those on the right (Which they failed to do). EU also gave them a date to start. It's also the first time this has ever happened, it's a new process for both Britain and the EU.

A crap example, but still works. If you are buying a house or car, you are not going to tell the agent you will pay the full price to then say I will pay 20% less. You are not going to give them an idea of your offer until you talk about the product/s.

Edited by Hansy (28 Jun 2017 2.00pm)

Moreover, you don't walk into a garage and say: "No matter what, I'm not leaving until I buy this car. It's the only car I want, and I have to get it from you"

And yet, Labour would agree to a deal with the EU, no matter how bad the terms. Thus guaranteeing it will be on the worst possible terms (after all, "Brexit cannot be a success", right?)

 
Islington Eagle Flag North of the River 28 Jun 17 3.26pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

"Indeed. Insisting "Brexit can never be a success"",
It will not be a success. We are already poorer as a result of the vote and this will continue to be the case for the next generation at least

"threatening punishment beatings of €40-100bn"

We will be paying don't worry about that

"rebuffing TWICE the offer to take citizens out of the equation entirely "

This is just plain nonsense - the UK position on EU nationals was published only on Monday and amounted to some scrawling on the back of a fag packet. Compared to the EU's comprehensive offer published over a month ago. This is just typical of Brexiteers who all seem to think the process is easy and can be sorted out over a pint down the pub.

"leaking meetings to the press to undermine the authority of and question the competency of the other side."

This is a fair point and looks to be a major miscalculation on the part of a member of the EU delegation to no.10

With regard to your Tribalism point. It is the Tories that have made this tribal by insisting only they can negotiate Brexit. If there was a cross party approach to the negotiations - which in light of no party getting a majority at the last election it should be - then your point could stand.

Edited by Islington Eagle (28 Jun 2017 3.28pm)

 

Palace Fan
Mstrobez Flag 28 Jun 17 3.34pm

The problem with the negotiations is the ramifications that will be seen politically in the country from any sensible or rational decision making. The noisiest group are those who I actually believe are in the minority that "just want out" without being clear of exactly what that means or exactly where we go from there. It doesn't really make a difference who leads these negotiations because essentially any planning comes down to being as difficult and uncooperative as possible and throwing any possible and rational agreement out of the window. Brexit means brexit!!

 

We're the Arthur over ere!
hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 28 Jun 17 3.40pm

Originally posted by Islington Eagle

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting read.
If anyone has 20 minutes to spare the chapter on Brexit is very informative.
The conclusion is very striking; that most people that voted for Brexit were either Uneducated, Old, right wing or racist (and a combination thereof) and mostly had no idea what they were voting for.

That section actually says "The young and highly educated are more likely than ever to believe that immigration is good for the economy, while older people and non-graduates are more likely to say immigration is bad for the economy."
No mention of 'right wing' or 'racist' or having no idea what they were voting for - is it normal in Islington to simply distort statements and make things up? You will also find that the votes of older, less educated people count as equal to those of young brain-washed products of the educational efforts of the liberal-left establishment of the last few decades.

 

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
Islington Eagle Flag North of the River 28 Jun 17 4.45pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

That section actually says "The young and highly educated are more likely than ever to believe that immigration is good for the economy, while older people and non-graduates are more likely to say immigration is bad for the economy."
No mention of 'right wing' or 'racist' or having no idea what they were voting for - is it normal in Islington to simply distort statements and make things up? You will also find that the votes of older, less educated people count as equal to those of young brain-washed products of the educational efforts of the liberal-left establishment of the last few decades.


Sorry. I was paraphrasing. The report actually says 'authoritarian' which I have simplified to right wing and 'worried about immigration'. Which I have harshly shortened to racist. I probably should have used Bigoted. It still stands that the report shows that the Old and less educated voted Brexit. The report also clearly demonstrates that people incorrectly conflated their disatisfaction with their national governance and general unhappiness, with rejection of the EU. - 'voting is the only way people like me can have any say about how the government runs thing' and that also 62% of people with little or no interest in politics voted leave.
Not for one second discounting the votes of anyone. However having a plebiscite without a qualified majority voting rule on such a huge decision which removes wholesale the hard fought rights of so many people was a huge mistake made by an inept and niaive Tory party.
Can't comment on the educational efforts of the liberal left establishment of the last few decades as I was educated by the reactionary right wing establishment many more decades ago.

 

Palace Fan
hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 28 Jun 17 6.39pm

Originally posted by Islington Eagle


Sorry. I was paraphrasing. The report actually says 'authoritarian' which I have simplified to right wing and 'worried about immigration'. Which I have harshly shortened to racist. I probably should have used Bigoted. It still stands that the report shows that the Old and less educated voted Brexit. The report also clearly demonstrates that people incorrectly conflated their disatisfaction with their national governance and general unhappiness, with rejection of the EU. - 'voting is the only way people like me can have any say about how the government runs thing' and that also 62% of people with little or no interest in politics voted leave.
Not for one second discounting the votes of anyone. However having a plebiscite without a qualified majority voting rule on such a huge decision which removes wholesale the hard fought rights of so many people was a huge mistake made by an inept and niaive Tory party.
Can't comment on the educational efforts of the liberal left establishment of the last few decades as I was educated by the reactionary right wing establishment many more decades ago.

Nothing wrong with that, people with a great interest in politics will vote for partisan reasons anyway. Also, fairly clear who is the bigot in this discussion.

Edited by hedgehog50 (28 Jun 2017 8.07pm)

 

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
Stirlingsays Flag 28 Jun 17 7.23pm

Anyone who doesn't believe in stertotypes just as to read the posts from our 'friend' in Islington.

Also if I hear someone make the incredibly arrogant point that people voting leave didn't know what they were voting for or that it was really just a vote against the establishment I think I'm going to stop my diet and get p1ssed.

We can attribute different reasons for any vote....There will always be those who vote one way and then regret it. My cousin told me that she'd voted remain and now regretted it.

It's like saying that those who voted for Corbyn didn't understand what they were doing....oh wait!

 

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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