I think for a lot of people it wasn't about immigration but one in the eye for the establishment and them having a chance to say "this isn't working, the UK is going down the plug hole and society is horribly unequal".

The majority of people do not want the Tory idea of Brexit. The majority probably don't care too much about the EU to be honest. They just want a system that is fairer, more equal and where public services and communities are invested in and helped and not simply left to rot.

Sadly the Tories have used the result for their own ends and the lack of strength in the government is actually only helping them deliver a Brexit that works for the establishment and just gives them and the already wealthy more power.

To where, more debt?

The amount of DEBT the EU continues to print to prop-up the 'bloc' seems to continually pass you by.

While we're here, having being the first to make this board aware of Maltas income through passport sales, another 'first' is that this country earns 10% of it's earnings through online gambling.
So what financial expertise exactly should we take from your posts?

Edited by .TUX. (12 Oct 2017 9.18pm)

EU credit rating = AAA
UK credit rating = AA2

AAA is 2 rungs better than AA2. Borrowing is lower in the EU.

I think that talking about debt issued by the EU is relatively pointless in this debate.

What's more important than arguing over Brexit itself is how we're managing it and what kind of Brexit we will end up with and whether we're going to end up with what people had in mind when they voted for it.

In my opinion the Tories are making a total mess of it, they are only interested in themselves and their backers and are totally ignoring the reasons people voted for Brexit. The same reason why they did so poorly in the Brexit election they had this year.

We're now in an extraordinarily weak position and no deal would be a disaster for numerous reasons. It's also fairly evident that it would be much worse for us than for the EU so it's not a particularly brilliant strategy, other than politically among Brexiteers. The EU 27 all have their own electorates they need to answer to, and anti-EU factions to ward off and for them no deal is quite good.

That stat needs quarantining as the EU debt to GDP is skewed by Germany - Italy, France and Spain have higher debt ratios than the UK.

I can't vote Johnson out. The person I can vote for won't be allowed a say. That's not democracy.

I'm no ardent remainer. My discussions have been about how we manage Brexit. I've constantly said I think Brexit could be a success, but right now it's heading for a disaster. There is such a spectrum of possibilities. Just because the EU isn't perfect and we could have a better and fairer society outside of it, doesn't make it a certainty. This is a chance to make our economy and society fairer, but the Tories want to take back power to have for themselves not for the people of Britain.

LOL - you are a talented impersonator then.

Edited by hedgehog50 (13 Oct 2017 9.34am)

I think for a lot of people it wasn't about immigration but one in the eye for the establishment and them having a chance to say "this isn't working, the UK is going down the plug hole and society is horribly unequal".

The majority of people do not want the Tory idea of Brexit. The majority probably don't care too much about the EU to be honest. They just want a system that is fairer, more equal and where public services and communities are invested in and helped and not simply left to rot.

Sadly the Tories have used the result for their own ends and the lack of strength in the government is actually only helping them deliver a Brexit that works for the establishment and just gives them and the already wealthy more power.

The EU is rated AAA/Aaa/AAA (outlook stable) by Fitch, Moody’s and DBRS

EU debt is guaranteed by all 28 countries so includes the UK, and all existing debt will continue to be post Brexit.

Our credit rating has already been downgraded since Brexit talks started and is under far greater pressure as we're much more exposed and our economy is performing less well.

Market expectations are already factored into ratings, so any expectation on the Brexit deal will be factored in now. Also the UK is legally bound to make certain payments and to guarantee these loans, even once they've left. If we renege on this it's our credit rating that will suffer (again).

Edited by CambridgeEagle (13 Oct 2017 9.28am)

I think for the majority it most definitely was. Why do you think the demagogue Farage stood in front of that poster with that never ending line refugees/migrants? To put the willies up folk and to confirm that their unsure fears were entirely 'rational' is the answer. And a lot of Anti-EU rhetoric is, in the right-wing media anyway, unashamedly xenophobic.

Some people buy into that. A lot apparently.