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Jeremy Corbyn


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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 22 Sep 15 1.02pm

Quote chris123 at 22 Sep 2015 12.56pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?


More traveling by train now than ever before - gone up by 70% in 10 years.


Not what I meant.

 
chris123 Flag hove actually 22 Sep 15 1.11pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 1.02pm

Quote chris123 at 22 Sep 2015 12.56pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?


More traveling by train now than ever before - gone up by 70% in 10 years.


Not what I meant.


The more we use the train the less significant a subsidy becomes, because we're all using it.

 
matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Sep 15 1.17pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?


I understand, from a cursory internet check, that the tax payer subsidises the railways by approximately GBP 1.2 bn a year. What is your point regarding this?

Plus, as someone who has a genuinely open mind regarding renationalisation of the railways, and as commuter who pays a significant amount to stand every morning in a crowded carriage, how would Corbyn address the following:

1. It would cost north of GBP 20 billion to renationalise the railways, this coupled with Network Rail's GBP 34 billion debts, plus the lawsuits that would probably follow such an event, would leave liabilities of circa GBP 70 billion in total. How would this be paid for and where would the money for the improvement of the tracks and rolling stock be raised?;
2. Given that Corbyn has said that he would campaign for Britain to stay within the EU, how would he address the situation that the renationalisation of the railways is apparently contrary to EU law? Would he campaign to leave the EU if his centrepiece 'Peoples Railway' was contrary to his position on the EU?;
3. What would be the strategy for the 'peoples railways'. Improved service or subsidised fares? And, as an observation, wouldn't it make more sense & more practical to renationalise the buses instead of the railways and operate the bus service in a more passenger orientated manner?

 

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
npn Flag Crowborough 22 Sep 15 1.19pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?


Yes, I believe they are.

My point is that we just don't know enough about any proposal yet to decide that the proposed nationalisation is a good or a bad thing. Anyone who is making a decision on it at the moment is surely doing it purely from an ideological standpoint (because that's all we've got). If you're a lefty in favour of greater government control then YES, if you're a righty in favour of market forces then NO.

I just want the best and cheapest rail travel possible (but then I spend a large proportion of my life on trains and I'm a selfish b@stard)

 
We are goin up! Flag Coulsdon 22 Sep 15 1.32pm

Quote matt_himself at 22 Sep 2015 1.17pm

Quote nickgusset at 22 Sep 2015 12.43pm

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't the railways (and other privatised services) massively subsidised by us already?


I understand, from a cursory internet check, that the tax payer subsidises the railways by approximately GBP 1.2 bn a year. What is your point regarding this?

Plus, as someone who has a genuinely open mind regarding renationalisation of the railways, and as commuter who pays a significant amount to stand every morning in a crowded carriage, how would Corbyn address the following:

1. It would cost north of GBP 20 billion to renationalise the railways, this coupled with Network Rail's GBP 34 billion debts, plus the lawsuits that would probably follow such an event, would leave liabilities of circa GBP 70 billion in total. How would this be paid for and where would the money for the improvement of the tracks and rolling stock be raised?;
2. Given that Corbyn has said that he would campaign for Britain to stay within the EU, how would he address the situation that the renationalisation of the railways is apparently contrary to EU law? Would he campaign to leave the EU if his centrepiece 'Peoples Railway' was contrary to his position on the EU?;
3. What would be the strategy for the 'peoples railways'. Improved service or subsidised fares? And, as an observation, wouldn't it make more sense & more practical to renationalise the buses instead of the railways and operate the bus service in a more passenger orientated manner?


This is the big one. Actually not possible to do whilst in the EU. To make some credible policy suggestions he's going to have to make a lot of compromises, isn't he?

Or is he going to make a load of impossible promises, calling it the "politics of hope" when in actual fact it's the politics of false hope?

I'm going to go with the latter.

 

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 22 Sep 15 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.

 

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]
Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 22 Sep 15 1.37pm

This is all totally irrelevant as 'Comrade Corbyn' will never be in power to implement his policies.

 
jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 22 Sep 15 1.41pm

Quote Willo at 22 Sep 2015 1.37pm

This is all totally irrelevant as 'Comrade Corbyn' will never be in power to implement his policies.

Hubris. I think he's unlikely to win the next election, but then I also thought Blair wouldn't be able to get the Labour party elected when he became leader.


 

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]
We are goin up! Flag Coulsdon 22 Sep 15 1.41pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.


Bonkers. Stark raving bonkers.

 

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
Stuk Flag Top half 22 Sep 15 1.50pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.

For tourists too?

I'd imagine that'd cost us between a quarter and half a million quid per week in lost revenue.

"London is the most visited city in the world by international tourists with 18.7 million international visitors"

 

Optimistic as ever
chris123 Flag hove actually 22 Sep 15 2.09pm

Quote We are goin up! at 22 Sep 2015 1.41pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.


Bonkers. Stark raving bonkers.


We did have very heavily subsidised fares when Ken was running the GLC, didn't last long though.

 
matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Sep 15 2.19pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.


Cost for renationalising alone would be GBP 70 billion. In order to meet demand, improvements in track and rolling stock would be an additional tens of billions, if not more.

How much would your proposal cost? How much extra would people have to pay in tax in order for this to happen? How would you get people out of their cars and on to public transport?

 

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 22 Sep 15 2.41pm

Quote matt_himself at 22 Sep 2015 2.19pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.


Cost for renationalising alone would be GBP 70 billion. In order to meet demand, improvements in track and rolling stock would be an additional tens of billions, if not more.

How much would your proposal cost? How much extra would people have to pay in tax in order for this to happen? How would you get people out of their cars and on to public transport?

God alone knows, I'm not standing for government or really thought it through and costed it, but the idea would be about making it free for UK citizens (or heavily subsidized but as we're talking ideals).

Whilst this would essentially cost a lot, the idea of the knock on effect is that it would also make it affordable for people to commute longer distances for work, allowing employment in areas where travel costs made it 'unviable' to do so (making longer commutes to fill vacancies).

 

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]
jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 22 Sep 15 2.44pm

Quote matt_himself at 22 Sep 2015 2.19pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.


Cost for renationalising alone would be GBP 70 billion. In order to meet demand, improvements in track and rolling stock would be an additional tens of billions, if not more.

How much would your proposal cost? How much extra would people have to pay in tax in order for this to happen? How would you get people out of their cars and on to public transport?

Well I wouldn't compensate shareholders in an ideal world, which were talking about here.

 

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]
jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 22 Sep 15 2.47pm

Quote Stuk at 22 Sep 2015 1.50pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.

For tourists too?

I'd imagine that'd cost us between a quarter and half a million quid per week in lost revenue.

"London is the most visited city in the world by international tourists with 18.7 million international visitors"

Probably not, ideally I'm talking about UK citizens. I'd hope that it would actually increase a lot of travel within the UK and the 'personal savings' of not having to shell out for travel, would result in people engaging more socially and recreationally, and further afield and have a knock on effect in terms of recreation and incomes from internal tourism.

Like I say, its what I'd like to see.

 

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]
Stuk Flag Top half 22 Sep 15 2.55pm

The to

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 2.44pm

Quote matt_himself at 22 Sep 2015 2.19pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.


Cost for renationalising alone would be GBP 70 billion. In order to meet demand, improvements in track and rolling stock would be an additional tens of billions, if not more.

How much would your proposal cost? How much extra would people have to pay in tax in order for this to happen? How would you get people out of their cars and on to public transport?

Well I wouldn't compensate shareholders in an ideal world, which were talking about here.


The trouble with that angle is that you'd be guilty of theft. And worse still, be working on the same logic as the stupid bitch in charge of Argentina.

Edited by Stuk (22 Sep 2015 2.55pm)

 

Optimistic as ever
Stuk Flag Top half 22 Sep 15 2.58pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 2.47pm

Quote Stuk at 22 Sep 2015 1.50pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.

For tourists too?

I'd imagine that'd cost us between a quarter and half a million quid per week in lost revenue.

"London is the most visited city in the world by international tourists with 18.7 million international visitors"

Probably not, ideally I'm talking about UK citizens. I'd hope that it would actually increase a lot of travel within the UK and the 'personal savings' of not having to shell out for travel, would result in people engaging more socially and recreationally, and further afield and have a knock on effect in terms of recreation and incomes from internal tourism.

Like I say, its what I'd like to see.

That'd be illegal under EU law I dare say.

And lots of people would spend those savings on the black economy, or on holidays outside of the UK.

 

Optimistic as ever
matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Sep 15 3.08pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 2.44pm

Quote matt_himself at 22 Sep 2015 2.19pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.


Cost for renationalising alone would be GBP 70 billion. In order to meet demand, improvements in track and rolling stock would be an additional tens of billions, if not more.

How much would your proposal cost? How much extra would people have to pay in tax in order for this to happen? How would you get people out of their cars and on to public transport?

Well I wouldn't compensate shareholders in an ideal world, which were talking about here.


Firstly, you are saying that you support undermining the rule of ownership? Thereby circumventing contract law for your own ends? This would be a prelude to the collapse of society is you encouraged the state pillaging of property. We would be in a state similar to Zimbabwe. Outside investment in this country would be withdrawn. Foreign and domestic capital flight would occur. How would you replace that and the the jobs that would be sucked out of the country as a result?

Secondly, even if you overcame the near collapse of the country as a result of your actions, that doesn't answer the question of the existing debt and monies needed to upgrade the system in order to cope with the new influx of passengers. Given that by now the UK's credit rating would have plummeted, the wealthy departed for new countries and industry relocated, how would you pay for the upgrades needed?

 

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
matt_himself Flag Matataland 22 Sep 15 3.09pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 2.44pm

Quote matt_himself at 22 Sep 2015 2.19pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.


Cost for renationalising alone would be GBP 70 billion. In order to meet demand, improvements in track and rolling stock would be an additional tens of billions, if not more.

How much would your proposal cost? How much extra would people have to pay in tax in order for this to happen? How would you get people out of their cars and on to public transport?

Well I wouldn't compensate shareholders in an ideal world, which were talking about here.


We're not talking 'ideal world' we are talking reality, as this will probably be a Corbyn policy.

Therefore please answer questions accordingly.

 

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 22 Sep 15 3.32pm

Quote matt_himself at 22 Sep 2015 3.08pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 2.44pm

Quote matt_himself at 22 Sep 2015 2.19pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Sep 2015 1.34pm

I'd like to see public transport free at point of use, with a focus on reducing the demand for private automobile use etc, and recouping costs through taxation.


Cost for renationalising alone would be GBP 70 billion. In order to meet demand, improvements in track and rolling stock would be an additional tens of billions, if not more.

How much would your proposal cost? How much extra would people have to pay in tax in order for this to happen? How would you get people out of their cars and on to public transport?

Well I wouldn't compensate shareholders in an ideal world, which were talking about here.


Firstly, you are saying that you support undermining the rule of ownership? Thereby circumventing contract law for your own ends? This would be a prelude to the collapse of society is you encouraged the state pillaging of property. We would be in a state similar to Zimbabwe. Outside investment in this country would be withdrawn. Foreign and domestic capital flight would occur. How would you replace that and the the jobs that would be sucked out of the country as a result?

Secondly, even if you overcame the near collapse of the country as a result of your actions, that doesn't answer the question of the existing debt and monies needed to upgrade the system in order to cope with the new influx of passengers. Given that by now the UK's credit rating would have plummeted, the wealthy departed for new countries and industry relocated, how would you pay for the upgrades needed?

Well firstly, if I had presumably the power to implement such a policy, I'd either have the democratic mandate to implement the renationalization of the railways specifically, or gained power through some kind of insurrection or massive social shift, so clearly we're expecting somekind of shift from a capitalist economic structure, to a post capitalist one.

So we're in a fantasy land, because my personal views are entirely incompatable with a capitalist system.

 

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]
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