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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Stirlingsays  19 Oct 17 2.24pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
It's 1 v 27 If you fancy the UKs chances of wriggling out of pre-accepted financial agreements on our terms then good luck to you still living in cloud-cuckoo land You sound like Halifax to Churchill.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| npn Crowborough 19 Oct 17 2.30pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
It's 1 v 27 If you fancy the UKs chances of wriggling out of pre-accepted financial agreements on our terms then good luck to you still living in cloud-cuckoo land Here is where I am obviously missing a major point. Why are the EU seemingly asking the UK to make an offer? If this is a bill to settle up funds already committed to (which I totally agree we should pay) surely it is easy to just present us with a bill "roads in Italy, 30m, Spanish hospital 10m" etc. Is the EU paperwork really in such a shocking state that they don't know what we actually owe? Anyone know why this isn't as easy as I think it should be?
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 19 Oct 17 2.31pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
The EU is not going back on any agreements at all. Who do you think is leaving then? They want us to leave on agreed date, keep paying up on projects after leaving and also take whatever medicine they 'agree' with all of them being shown what can happen if they don't sign. And you're in appreciation of that?
COYP |
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| CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 2.33pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
OK so what do you propose? Did you read that George Monbiot article? I would like to see something along the lines of a Swiss system of more civic involvement in policy. I would also like to see more state involvement in areas that were difficult under EU. Better regulation of environment, working practices, more investment in the economy. I'd like close cooperation with Europe on security and environment, but an ability to go further and invest in R&D in both areas. I'd like to see a state run VC business investing public money in start ups and tech companies providing them with capital, expertise in return for a public stake (small) when these companies grow and become successful (risky but gives public a buy in and is successful in private sphere). I'd like to see us look at data generating and storing companies such as Google and Facebook and treat them more like utilities and place greater responsibility on them in the way they use our data. I don't want to see us signing up to stuff like TTIP or TISA which the EU want. I'd like to see the way farming and land use is subsidised by CAP overhauled so that wealthy landowners don't cream off the top and instead farmers achieve fair prices for their produce. I'd like to see our waters protected from pollution and overfishing. I don't want to see the UK turning into a tax haven off the shores of Europe, devoid of environmental and employee protections.
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 Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 2.37pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
Did you read that George Monbiot article? I would like to see something along the lines of a Swiss system of more civic involvement in policy. I would also like to see more state involvement in areas that were difficult under EU. Better regulation of environment, working practices, more investment in the economy. I'd like close cooperation with Europe on security and environment, but an ability to go further and invest in R&D in both areas. I'd like to see a state run VC business investing public money in start ups and tech companies providing them with capital, expertise in return for a public stake (small) when these companies grow and become successful (risky but gives public a buy in and is successful in private sphere). I'd like to see us look at data generating and storing companies such as Google and Facebook and treat them more like utilities and place greater responsibility on them in the way they use our data. I don't want to see us signing up to stuff like TTIP or TISA which the EU want. I'd like to see the way farming and land use is subsidised by CAP overhauled so that wealthy landowners don't cream off the top and instead farmers achieve fair prices for their produce. I'd like to see our waters protected from pollution and overfishing. I don't want to see the UK turning into a tax haven off the shores of Europe, devoid of environmental and employee protections. Right. So how are you or I going to affect any of that?
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| CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 2.39pm |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
They want us to leave on agreed date, keep paying up on projects after leaving and also take whatever medicine they 'agree' with all of them being shown what can happen if they don't sign. And you're in appreciation of that? It's not simply projects but potentially bad loans to which we are a legal guarantor. In terms of the projects it's like a Sky subscriptions where you sign up for 18 months and want out after 6. You still have to pay for the rest of the contract even if you don't watch the TV. For them it's a matter of principal and commitments made and signed up to, not simply a bargaining chip. It's also something that will be important with their own citizens who don't want to end up with a bigger bill because we've not paid for what we said we would. A lot of this is political sadly. In business this would have been done as shareholders don't worry to much about the spin, more about the bottom line and future cash flows. The future for politicians often never comes.
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| CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 2.41pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Right. So how are you or I going to affect any of that? Campaign. Stand for office. Vote for someone who represents those things. Write to your MP. Don't just shut up and settle. Hard Brexit could be fine, but not without taking up the opportunities to make the country better, which requires will and work. It's not a given. It can't just be left to Theresa May etc and assumed they will do it.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 2.43pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
You're an idiot. You've basically advocated one referendum but no more. One voice for the people but then shut up. I'm no frothing remainer. The world isn't split into Tory vision hard brexiteer UK tax haven nut cases and frothing remainers. I was quoting a Tory MP concerning Tyranny. Leaving one tyrant doesn't mean you don't just walk into another (potentially worse) one. I've been talking about opportunities with Brexit and you just don't seem to understand. Broaden your brain. Sticks and stones dear boy. I didn't advocate a referendum at all. Irrespective, there was only ever going to be one and all you say is just the witterings of someone on the losing side who will now have to sit back powerless an see how the cards fall. Suck it up.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 2.45pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
Campaign. Stand for office. Vote for someone who represents those things. Write to your MP. Don't just shut up and settle. Hard Brexit could be fine, but not without taking up the opportunities to make the country better, which requires will and work. It's not a given. It can't just be left to Theresa May etc and assumed they will do it. Go for it. I wish you luck. That's the least 'an idiot' can do.
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Kermit8  Hevon 19 Oct 17 2.48pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
You sound like Halifax to Churchill. And you'd get deported from Cloud-Cuckoo Land for ongoing absurdity
Big chest and massive boobs |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 19 Oct 17 2.50pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
Yes I hope we can get a deal done and the government uses Brexit as an opportunity which it is. I am more sceptical of the latter and do think a deal will get done in the end before March 2019. I am surprised you think it is an opportunity! There is no evidence surely other than wishing it. Well hope it goes well. What is the use of that....
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| Lyons550 Shirley 19 Oct 17 3.15pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Yes I know leave won. That's not the issue. I want to know what's going well. Just why do we need to know at this juncture?? It's not as if any of us can influence talks...as such they'd be foolish to let us know during the process until agreements are made...after which then clearly they can tell us...again not that we could do anything about it.
The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World |
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| Lyons550 Shirley 19 Oct 17 4.22pm |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
That excuses them for shutting us out of trade talks? We could be invited into their trade talks at any moment. I see no reason why not other than they don't want us aware of any wavering support on their side until we're aware of the punishing means to put off that wavering support. And that's fair?
The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World |
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| Mapletree Croydon 19 Oct 17 4.28pm |
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Originally posted by npn
Here is where I am obviously missing a major point. Why are the EU seemingly asking the UK to make an offer? If this is a bill to settle up funds already committed to (which I totally agree we should pay) surely it is easy to just present us with a bill "roads in Italy, 30m, Spanish hospital 10m" etc. Is the EU paperwork really in such a shocking state that they don't know what we actually owe? Anyone know why this isn't as easy as I think it should be? We made commitments with unknown financial consequences. You know, a bit like buying options. You can't really judge their true worth. It would take one hell of a Black Scholes calculation to work this little lot out. It's every tiny corner of the economy.
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| CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 4.37pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
I am surprised you think it is an opportunity! There is no evidence surely other than wishing it. Well hope it goes well. What is the use of that.... It's definitely an opportunity, but also a risk. I currently can't see it going well due to Tory party infighting and May's weak position, plus wasted time and uncertainty pushing people and business away. I hope for a positive outcome but I think the Tories will blow it. There is also the risk that the EU does what Varoufakis believes it will and inflict a bad outcome on the UK to make an example of it to other member states. The EU is not perfect and things like TTIP and TISA are quite worrying, but sadly the Tories love them more than the EU does. Leaving the EU helps to avoid these though as we can get rid of the Tories (hopefully soon). We can also do more to protect our environment and invest in our economy and protect workers. I would have more immigration not less though and look to make it as frictionless as possible. More mobile labour within society and across borders and more restriction on capital is much better from an economic point of view. Sadly I can't see it happening though and I'm quite worried about Brexit and the constraints it will end up putting on ordinary people and the impact it will have on inequality and business.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 19 Oct 17 4.45pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
It's definitely an opportunity, but also a risk. I currently can't see it going well due to Tory party infighting and May's weak position, plus wasted time and uncertainty pushing people and business away. I hope for a positive outcome but I think the Tories will blow it. There is also the risk that the EU does what Varoufakis believes it will and inflict a bad outcome on the UK to make an example of it to other member states. The EU is not perfect and things like TTIP and TISA are quite worrying, but sadly the Tories love them more than the EU does. Leaving the EU helps to avoid these though as we can get rid of the Tories (hopefully soon). We can also do more to protect our environment and invest in our economy and protect workers. I would have more immigration not less though and look to make it as frictionless as possible. More mobile labour within society and across borders and more restriction on capital is much better from an economic point of view. Sadly I can't see it happening though and I'm quite worried about Brexit and the constraints it will end up putting on ordinary people and the impact it will have on inequality and business. Corbyn has been over to Brussels with kier Starmer today. Wonder what he said to the key figures he met.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 4.52pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Corbyn has been over to Brussels with kier Starmer today. Wonder what he said to the key figures he met. Who cares.
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| elgrande bedford 19 Oct 17 4.55pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
It's definitely an opportunity, but also a risk. I currently can't see it going well due to Tory party infighting and May's weak position, plus wasted time and uncertainty pushing people and business away. I hope for a positive outcome but I think the Tories will blow it. There is also the risk that the EU does what Varoufakis believes it will and inflict a bad outcome on the UK to make an example of it to other member states. The EU is not perfect and things like TTIP and TISA are quite worrying, but sadly the Tories love them more than the EU does. Leaving the EU helps to avoid these though as we can get rid of the Tories (hopefully soon). We can also do more to protect our environment and invest in our economy and protect workers. I would have more immigration not less though and look to make it as frictionless as possible. More mobile labour within society and across borders and more restriction on capital is much better from an economic point of view. Sadly I can't see it happening though and I'm quite worried about Brexit and the constraints it will end up putting on ordinary people and the impact it will have on inequality and business. So in one sentence you say you welcome more immigration, and in another say you worry about ordinarily people with the tory brexit.....more immigration will surely affect the " ordinarily people " as you call them.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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| elgrande bedford 19 Oct 17 4.56pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Corbyn has been over to Brussels with kier Starmer today. Wonder what he said to the key figures he met. Thankfully they have no say.ivory towers an all.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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