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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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Stirlingsays Flag 06 Dec 17 7.41pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

So if it were 20% who said they were Irish from the Unionist/Protestant community in 1968, which is a lot more than today, have a stab at how many more thought they were Irish (because they are) 50 or 75 years earlier.

S'alright. They are still British in the here and now. The law says they can be.

Don't get so uppity. Just reporting historical data to back up my 'numpty' claim

You said one thing ....the reality is another.

You wrote, 'nearly all the north of Ireland called themselves Irish 100 years ago, including Protestants and Unionists'.

When asked for evidence you give me polling data from 68 showing 20 percent of Unionists.

I reckon you are just trying to wind me up.

 

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
Kermit8 Flag Hevon 06 Dec 17 7.45pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You said one thing ....the reality is another.

You wrote, 'nearly all the north of Ireland called themselves Irish 100 years ago, including Protestants and Unionists'.

When asked for evidence you give me polling data from 68 showing 20 percent of Unionists.

I reckon you are just trying to wind me up.

I haven't served the main course yet.

 

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]
Stirlingsays Flag 06 Dec 17 8.31pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

I haven't served the main course yet.

You eat extremely slowly.

 

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
Kermit8 Flag Hevon 06 Dec 17 8.45pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You eat extremely slowly.

Enjoy.

The following is an abridgement of a worthwhile column in Belfast Telegraph, 10 Dec 2008.
The author is a professor of Irish Studies in the school of politics at Queen's University Belfast.

Bertie Ahern once declared that one of the "saddest developments" in recent decades has been "the reduction in the number of people in the North from a Protestant unionist and loyalist background who regard themselves as Irish, or as both Irish and British".

One hundred years ago most unionists in Ireland, north and south, regarded themselves as Irish. Post-1921, we can see the development of a heightened sense of British identity, embracing Ulster, or Northern Ireland, which denied increasingly any sense of Irishness. At the same time, the new Irish Free State experienced the growth of its own heightened form of Irish/Gaelic identity.

The movement in the northern unionist community away from an Irish identity, however, did not take place overnight and in fact many unionists retained a strong Irish dimension for decades. For example in 1929, in a debate in the Northern Ireland parliament, a unionist MP stated: "We are Irishmen ... I always hold that Ulstermen are Irishmen and the best of Irishmen." The speaker was none other than the unionist leader, Lord Craigavon. In 1936, he would repeat this point: "While we are Ulstermen, we are also Irishmen." When Craigavon died in 1940, John M Andrews, his successor, paid tribute to him as a "great Ulsterman, a great Irishman and a great Imperialist".

 

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]
Stirlingsays Flag 06 Dec 17 9.27pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Enjoy.

The following is an abridgement of a worthwhile column in Belfast Telegraph, 10 Dec 2008.
The author is a professor of Irish Studies in the school of politics at Queen's University Belfast.

Bertie Ahern once declared that one of the "saddest developments" in recent decades has been "the reduction in the number of people in the North from a Protestant unionist and loyalist background who regard themselves as Irish, or as both Irish and British".

One hundred years ago most unionists in Ireland, north and south, regarded themselves as Irish. Post-1921, we can see the development of a heightened sense of British identity, embracing Ulster, or Northern Ireland, which denied increasingly any sense of Irishness. At the same time, the new Irish Free State experienced the growth of its own heightened form of Irish/Gaelic identity.

The movement in the northern unionist community away from an Irish identity, however, did not take place overnight and in fact many unionists retained a strong Irish dimension for decades. For example in 1929, in a debate in the Northern Ireland parliament, a unionist MP stated: "We are Irishmen ... I always hold that Ulstermen are Irishmen and the best of Irishmen." The speaker was none other than the unionist leader, Lord Craigavon. In 1936, he would repeat this point: "While we are Ulstermen, we are also Irishmen." When Craigavon died in 1940, John M Andrews, his successor, paid tribute to him as a "great Ulsterman, a great Irishman and a great Imperialist".

I asked you for any statistical evidence for this.....instead you give me a quote from an Irish politician in 2008! or from one unionists MP eighty odd years ago.

Where are your stats to back your claim? If you make a numeric claim with words like, 'majority' then understand someone's going to call you out on your crap.

There was never a majority of unionists who considered themselves members of Ireland. The clue is in the word, unionist.


Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Dec 2017 9.30pm)

 

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
Kermit8 Flag Hevon 06 Dec 17 11.19pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I asked you for any statistical evidence for this.....instead you give me a quote from an Irish politician in 2008! or from one unionists MP eighty odd years ago.

Where are your stats to back your claim? If you make a numeric claim with words like, 'majority' then understand someone's going to call you out on your crap.

There was never a majority of unionists who considered themselves members of Ireland. The clue is in the word, unionist.


Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Dec 2017 9.30pm)

There is plenty for you to chew on. You just don't want to recognise the actual truth from the past. Unionists saw themselves as Irish. They had linguistic and cultural affinity with all things Irish. Of course they did. That is until the political sh1te hit with Home Rule talk.

You are half-Irish yourself. You should know this stuff already.

 

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]
Stirlingsays Flag 06 Dec 17 11.55pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

There is plenty for you to chew on. You just don't want to recognise the actual truth from the past. Unionists saw themselves as Irish. They had linguistic and cultural affinity with all things Irish. Of course they did. That is until the political sh1te hit with Home Rule talk.

You are half-Irish yourself. You should know this stuff already.

Don't call me half Irish you wind up.

You are a numpty, who can't back up his crap and that's all you have produced here....crap.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Dec 2017 11.57pm)

 

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
Kermit8 Flag Hevon 07 Dec 17 9.56am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Don't call me half Irish you wind up.

You are a numpty, who can't back up his crap and that's all you have produced here....crap.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Dec 2017 11.57pm)

I repeat from above from the Professor of Irish Studies.

"One hundred years ago most unionists in Ireland, north and south, regarded themselves as Irish. Post-1921, we can see the development of a heightened sense of British identity, embracing Ulster, or Northern Ireland, which denied increasingly any sense of Irishness. At the same time, the new Irish Free State experienced the growth of its own heightened form of Irish/Gaelic identity.

The movement in the northern unionist community away from an Irish identity, however, did not take place overnight and in fact many unionists retained a strong Irish dimension for decades."

You can lead an instransigent horse to water....etc

 

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]
Jimenez Flag SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 07 Dec 17 12.04pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

I repeat from above from the Professor of Irish Studies.

"One hundred years ago most unionists in Ireland, north and south, regarded themselves as Irish. Post-1921, we can see the development of a heightened sense of British identity, embracing Ulster, or Northern Ireland, which denied increasingly any sense of Irishness. At the same time, the new Irish Free State experienced the growth of its own heightened form of Irish/Gaelic identity.

The movement in the northern unionist community away from an Irish identity, however, did not take place overnight and in fact many unionists retained a strong Irish dimension for decades."

You can lead an instransigent horse to water....etc


Tomato Tomato I deal witha lot of Norn Iron on a daily basis & they are in both camps either profoundly Irish (NY Celtic supporters clubs) or extremely British. There's little hope for the lot of them as most are so bigoted in their beliefs..

 

Pro USA & Israel
nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 07 Dec 17 2.34pm

[Link]

20 years of b.s. about the EU.

 
simlaboy Flag coulsdon 07 Dec 17 10.55pm

More Lefty bollocks from our favourite red contributor, honestly, you really need to kick back a bit , go have yourself a free trade coffee and a portion of mung beans ,

 
nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 07 Dec 17 11.03pm

Originally posted by simlaboy

More Lefty bollocks from our favourite red contributor, honestly, you really need to kick back a bit , go have yourself a free trade coffee and a portion of mung beans ,

A posting of a list of media fuelled bulls*** that many believed to be true will always engender this sort of response from those that believed the b.s.

 
Rubin Flag 07 Dec 17 11.23pm

A few years old, but still important.

[Link]

With chilling candour, a paper from a senior government official laid out the difficulties that Britain would face in the proposed Common Market.

All across Europe, from riots in Greece to those protest votes for Marine Le Pen and George Galloway, we see signs of how alienated people now feel from the “political class” which rules over our lives, out of touch with the rest of us, without meaningful opposition, no longer responsive to any democratic control. I am reminded of a document I discovered in the National Archives at Kew in January 2002, when sifting through papers released under the 30-year rule relating to Britain’s negotiations to join the Common Market. It was a confidential 1971 memorandum, clearly written by a senior Foreign Office official, headed “Sovereignty and the Community”.

With chilling candour, this paper (from FCO folder 30/104 predicted that it would take 30 years for the British people to wake up to the real nature of the European project that Edward Heath was about to take them into, by which time it would be too late for them to leave. Its author made clear that the Community was headed for economic, monetary and fiscal union, with a common foreign and defence policy, which would constitute the greatest surrender of Britain’s national sovereignty in history. Since “Community law” would take precedence over our own, ever more power would pass to this new bureaucratic system centred in Brussels – and, as the role of Parliament diminished, this would lead to a “popular feeling of alienation from government”.

 
nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 07 Dec 17 11.29pm

Originally posted by Rubin

A few years old, but still important.

[Link]

With chilling candour, a paper from a senior government official laid out the difficulties that Britain would face in the proposed Common Market.

All across Europe, from riots in Greece to those protest votes for Marine Le Pen and George Galloway, we see signs of how alienated people now feel from the “political class” which rules over our lives, out of touch with the rest of us, without meaningful opposition, no longer responsive to any democratic control. I am reminded of a document I discovered in the National Archives at Kew in January 2002, when sifting through papers released under the 30-year rule relating to Britain’s negotiations to join the Common Market. It was a confidential 1971 memorandum, clearly written by a senior Foreign Office official, headed “Sovereignty and the Community”.

With chilling candour, this paper (from FCO folder 30/104 predicted that it would take 30 years for the British people to wake up to the real nature of the European project that Edward Heath was about to take them into, by which time it would be too late for them to leave. Its author made clear that the Community was headed for economic, monetary and fiscal union, with a common foreign and defence policy, which would constitute the greatest surrender of Britain’s national sovereignty in history. Since “Community law” would take precedence over our own, ever more power would pass to this new bureaucratic system centred in Brussels – and, as the role of Parliament diminished, this would lead to a “popular feeling of alienation from government”.

They won in the 70's referendum. get over it.

 
nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 08 Dec 17 12.16am

Worth watching just for the line, 'Rees Mogg will shot his pants and his nanny will have to change his nappy.'

 
DanH Flag SW2 08 Dec 17 10.53am

Deal announced this morning seems very sensible.

 
Kermit8 Flag Hevon 08 Dec 17 11.06am

Originally posted by DanH

Deal announced this morning seems very sensible.

Indeed. Which by that very definition means the Hard Brexiteers won't like it.

"There will be no "hard border" with Ireland and EU citizens in the UK, and UK citizens in the EU, will see their rights protected.
The so-called "divorce bill" will amount to between £35bn and £40bn, the BBC understands.

Edited by Kermit8 (08 Dec 2017 11.06am)

 

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]
steeleye20 Flag Croydon 08 Dec 17 11.11am

Originally posted by DanH

Deal announced this morning seems very sensible.


“In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union.”

Looks like we are becoming closer to the EU as a result of brexit.


 
CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 08 Dec 17 11.27am

Originally posted by steeleye20


“In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union.”

Looks like we are becoming closer to the EU as a result of brexit.



But won't have a say in any of those rules.

I'm glad we can move on to Stage 2 talks, but worried still that we've got the D team representing our interests.

 
nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 08 Dec 17 11.43am

It's bloody unfair. A person from Northern Ireland can get an Irish passport and freely travel the EU. I can't. Why should they get preferential treatment by accident of birth.


Looks like a soft brexit...

 
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