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Bias against Trump
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 Kermit8  Hevon 05 Jan 18 1.40pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
That's a bit reductionist isn't it? America is a 'gun culture' country. While I am not pro-gun...all things being equal...as there are exceptions in my view. While I'm not pro-gun I hardly think that simply being in the NRA is a statement upon the ethics of a person. For example, Mogg isn't 'pro-gun' and you called him an extremist on here. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Jan 2018 1.34pm) I said a fundamentalist, which he is proudly and unashamedly, not an extremist. Nawty Stirling.
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Stirlingsays  05 Jan 18 1.45pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
I said a fundamentalist, which he is proudly and unashamedly, not an extremist. Nawty Stirling. That's what I thought you said but I'm happy to be corrected. It doesn't change the point though. I could choose many other examples of people you don't like who are anti gun. I know pro gun Americans brought up in that culture who are good people...we disagree on this issue but it's understandable. Being in a gun club isn't a statement on a person's character.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Kermit8 Hevon 05 Jan 18 1.54pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
That's what I thought you said but I'm happy to be corrected. It doesn't change the point though. I could choose many other examples of people you don't like who are anti gun. I know pro gun Americans brought up in that culture who are good people...we disagree on this issue but it's understandable. Being in a gun club isn't a statement on a person's character. They would be wise to very strongly reform not give up guns totally. Be a bit more like here. Stricter. Good people will understand that. The 400,000 to be shot dead over the next 10-12 years in the US will wish that they had. Especially the kids.
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| Stirlingsays 05 Jan 18 2.01pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
They would be wise to very strongly reform not give up guns totally. Be a bit more like here. Stricter. Good people will understand that. The 400,000 to be shot dead over the next 10-12 years in the US will wish that they had. Especially the kids.
Unless you are living in a gated area that's protected....then not having a gun is taking a far higher risk than for us here. Can you imagine the free for all the criminals would have in the US if non criminals gave up all their guns. But is a country with a 'gun culture' better than one without one?.....it's not even an argument....the statistics are there for the fair minded to view.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 05 Jan 18 2.07pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
They would be wise to very strongly reform not give up guns totally. Be a bit more like here. Stricter. Good people will understand that. The 400,000 to be shot dead over the next 10-12 years in the US will wish that they had. Especially the kids. Oh and how are you gonna do that?
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| Kermit8 Hevon 05 Jan 18 2.14pm |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
Oh and how are you gonna do that? Amnesties, law changes, severe punishments for transgressors, and ban the sale of bullets to everyone who doesn't actually need a gun for work nor for allowed, legal recreation. For any other sane country in The West it would be/is doable but as it's the U.S...yep, you are right. Impossible.
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| Kermit8 Hevon 05 Jan 18 2.19pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Unless you are living in a gated area that's protected....then not having a gun is taking a far higher risk than for us here. Can you imagine the free for all the criminals would have in the US if non criminals gave up all their guns. But is a country with a 'gun culture' better than one without one?.....it's not even an argument....the statistics are there for the fair minded to view. You could if all under 12's were brought up with the attitude that guns are only for cops and farmers and sports and illegal otherwise and when they grow up they brought up their children to believe the same and all the while reinforced with new strict gun laws. It could all be very different in 30-40 years or less and with each passing generation.
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| Kermit8 Hevon 05 Jan 18 2.20pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Unless you are living in a gated area that's protected....then not having a gun is taking a far higher risk than for us here. Can you imagine the free for all the criminals would have in the US if non criminals gave up all their guns. But is a country with a 'gun culture' better than one without one?.....it's not even an argument....the statistics are there for the fair minded to view. You could if all under 12's were brought up via school education with the attitude that guns are only for cops and farmers and sports and illegal otherwise and when they grow up they brought up their children to believe the same and all the while reinforced with new strict gun laws. It could all be very different in 30-40 years or less and with each passing generation.
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| legaleagle 05 Jan 18 2.23pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
And as we know....truth to an activist is just additionally nice rather than central.
Would you say that applies to activists generally on all sides of the spectrum?
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| wordup 05 Jan 18 2.29pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
You could if all under 12's were brought up via school education with the attitude that guns are only for cops and farmers and sports and illegal otherwise and when they grow up they brought up their children to believe the same and all the while reinforced with new strict gun laws. It could all be very different in 30-40 years or less and with each passing generation. It's a commendable aim, but they would be going home to parents telling them the exact opposite on account that they are very likely gun owners themselves.
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| Stirlingsays 05 Jan 18 2.39pm |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Would you say that applies to activists generally on all sides of the spectrum? In general I would. Most activists are a pain in the arse......I say that whilst recognising that without them nothing moves forward or changes. However.....while my and pretty much everyone's view of an activist is dependent upon what they are pushing ....I think many people can say that a good many of them lose sight of the woods from the trees.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 05 Jan 18 2.47pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Amnesties, law changes, severe punishments for transgressors, and ban the sale of bullets to everyone who doesn't actually need a gun for work nor for allowed, legal recreation. For any other sane country in The West it would be/is doable but as it's the U.S...yep, you are right. Impossible. I admire your positivism, but I can't see The Second Amendment being ripped up, ever. At least not in our lifetimes.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 05 Jan 18 2.50pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
And as we know....truth to an activist is just additionally nice rather than central. What I would say though is that I don't agree that Trump is right to look to ban this book.....also he also displays his hypocrisy by calling the author a liar as he has no issues with lies that suit him. So in essence he's getting what he gives out back. But the tone of all this isn't serious and shouldn't be taken seriously......maybe there is some truth in it...we will see I guess. I would certainly be interested in reading more serious books on the whole Trump pre and presidential experience once it's all done.....but not a tabloid hack style book. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Jan 2018 12.59pm) I dunno, it ties up with what I see when the man in question is almost incapable of a coherent sentence in press briefings / interviews, and from the absurdity of his constant tweeting. The man doesn't seem to have a coherent memory at all, constantly claiming things now about events and people, that contradict what he was saying about them a year ago; and appears to completely believe it. Its not just that he's dumb, he doesn't realise maybe just how dumb he is. Seriously, how many presidents would persist with twitter if it was just constantly being used to undermine their credibility. The bloke is a f**king mental midget. He might not be as f**ked as people think, and it might be that he's just an average man well out of his depth. No credibility, no real authority and seemingly, according to numerous different sources, regarded as incompetent not only by the opposition, but his own party and staff. Even Bannon, seems to have deserted him. He's not even got the sense to resign himself to the fact that he's in the s**t and withdraw from making stupid statements. At least G W Bush knew his limitations and employed people to assist with them. Trump seems to spend half his statements praising himself.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Stirlingsays 05 Jan 18 2.50pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
You could if all under 12's were brought up via school education with the attitude that guns are only for cops and farmers and sports and illegal otherwise and when they grow up they brought up their children to believe the same and all the while reinforced with new strict gun laws. It could all be very different in 30-40 years or less and with each passing generation. It's a nice idea but it wouldn't work....these are people's children....I think that would be an example of the state being too political. If the majority of Americans want guns then guns is what they get. They certainly aren't the only country.....It's for the politicians to win the arguments....maybe an elected president can do something on restricting advertising...but coercion isn't a good idea. Every gun massacre is a tragedy.....It's one of those horrible fault lines where there is no answer.....It's a s*** sandwich.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 05 Jan 18 2.57pm |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
I admire your positivism, but I can't see The Second Amendment being ripped up, ever. At least not in our lifetimes. Here in lies the problem. Gun control laws aren't about ripping up the second amendment - its about sensible legislation about the ownership of lethal weapons. The lobby seems to be absurdly point at any reasonable legislation as being anti-gun. The US could reduce its problem with a massive overhaul of mental health care and costs in the US. But then, that means spending money - Arguably a lot of these people committing these acts are people who have mental health problems that cannot be addressed or intervention is unaffordable. The NRA and lobby even break down laws regarding the production of firearms databases - which the Police and Federal authorities really want (so they can verify whether someone at a call their going to has access to firearms). As for the 'then only bad guys will have guns' there is an inherent problem here. Half of the gun deaths are suicides, and almost all of the spree shootings in the US are committed with legally owned firearms. Also the primary source for firearms for criminals, is from the legal market. It seems absurd that the question is how many massacres a year is acceptable.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 05 Jan 18 3.03pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
It's a nice idea but it wouldn't work....these are people's children....I think that would be an example of the state being too political. If the majority of Americans want guns then guns is what they get. They certainly aren't the only country.....It's for the politicians to win the arguments....maybe an elected president can do something on restricting advertising...but coercion isn't a good idea. Every gun massacre is a tragedy.....It's one of those horrible fault lines where there is no answer.....It's a s*** sandwich.
The reality isn't what people want - Its about how much money there is in the Gun Business in the US. We're talking about a country that banned automatic weapons, and then allowed people to obtain 'loop holes' in terms of hardware around that. In what other country would that be considered even remotely reasonable. The UK in response to Hungerford outlawed the sale of rifles going forwards, but allowed for those who had them, in circulation, to keep them, provided they converted the magazine to a restricted number of rounds - so they could still be used for hunting. Similarly with shotguns, at the time, pump actions shotguns for sale were restricted to 3 rounds maximum and that those owning larger capacity shotguns would have a period of time in which to have them converted down to three rounds. I get that people might need a handgun for home defence - that seems reasonable - what they don't need is a stack of them, a few Assault rifles, a couple of hunting rifles and a range of shotguns plus a few thousand rounds of ammo in the house. But that would then cut into the Gun Lobby's profits. The US would see this as anti-gun, not sensible legislation.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Stirlingsays 05 Jan 18 3.08pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I dunno, it ties up with what I see when the man in question is almost incapable of a coherent sentence in press briefings / interviews, and from the absurdity of his constant tweeting. The man doesn't seem to have a coherent memory at all, constantly claiming things now about events and people, that contradict what he was saying about them a year ago; and appears to completely believe it. Its not just that he's dumb, he doesn't realise maybe just how dumb he is. Seriously, how many presidents would persist with twitter if it was just constantly being used to undermine their credibility. The bloke is a f**king mental midget. He might not be as f**ked as people think, and it might be that he's just an average man well out of his depth. No credibility, no real authority and seemingly, according to numerous different sources, regarded as incompetent not only by the opposition, but his own party and staff. Even Bannon, seems to have deserted him. He's not even got the sense to resign himself to the fact that he's in the s**t and withdraw from making stupid statements. At least G W Bush knew his limitations and employed people to assist with them. Trump seems to spend half his statements praising himself. Bannon called him 'a great man' the other night on his radio show.....so, lets not get too carried away with one narrative that just fits our take. I'm sure than Bannon says a lot of things and talks out of both sides of his mouth so to speak. While you have quite a lot of invective I wouldn't disagree with some of your characterisations. However, Trump is president and he won fairly using their system....with no doubt the usual unethical behaviours that most campaign teams are guilty of. I think I hear a lot of intellectual snobbery over Trump. Sure, there are far more intelligent politicians and he wouldn't have risen this high in a better meritocracy....sure. Personally I view Trump as intelligent enough....intelligent enough to limit his role in certain ways. He obviously does take advice and eventually he has actually appointed quite competent people....certainly no less competent than his predecessors. Besides what did being considerably smarter get Obama? He was an embarrassment on foreign affairs and ended his presidency with the world less safe....provided the space for IS extremists to expand in Iraq..... Trump has already had a better affect in foreign affairs for America than Obama managed his entire tenure....Nobel peace prize....it's a parody.....The North Korea problem was an issue left to him by Obama....and to be fair all the presidents since the fifties....but the nuclear reality only matured under Obama.....Trump's actually pushed China over NK and they take him seriously....while they treated Obama with contempt. It appears that Trump runs very little domestic policy other than a concern on Islamic immigration and leaves it to the party.....his interest is mainly on trade and foreign affairs and twitter. He's improved relations with Russia, deescalated the difference over Syria (and I was with Clinton on that) His affects on trade and taxes will be seen....and I'm open minded on it.....Of course he's embarrassing on Twitter.....but Trump is Trump. There are plenty of Trump policies I don't agree with but that's no different than what I saw with Obama....and I like the nationalism of Trump and he's pro British.....plus he's certainly far more amusing than Clinton. So for me at least...it is what it is. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Jan 2018 3.17pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Henry of Peckham  Eton Mess 05 Jan 18 3.13pm |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
I admire your positivism, but I can't see The Second Amendment being ripped up, ever. At least not in our lifetimes. My ex wife is an American. I always felt uneasy about visiting her relatives and seeing the massive amounts of weaponry they possessed. It wasn't a single gun but usually cabinets full of the darn things. I can't recount number of offers I turned down to go out and shoot things. It's a way of life out there and I can't see them giving it up easily either.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 05 Jan 18 4.04pm |
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[Tweet Link]
Sounds pretty nailed on.
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