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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Kermit8  Hevon 18 Dec 17 10.14am |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
Rebuttal - you appear to be giving the EU credit for world peace and all consumer science developments since 1945. Seeing as how the EU has only existed since 1992, that is preposterous. Even if the EU had existed since 1945, that would be preposterous as well. You appear to be confusing dreams and reality to defend your uptopian vision of the EU. The European project started in the 1950's so that is my starting point. The bigger picture. Now let's go back and see how today's EU members were doing back then. Spain - right-wing dictatorship, repressed and poor peasantry in many parts. Italy- ravaged by effects of WW2 still. P1ss poor. Lots of emigration. Germany - enough said. Romania, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Latvia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Lithuania, Slovenia - All under the iron fist of a totalitarian Soviet Union or their acolytes. Austria - Occupied by The Allied Forces Cyprus - about to be engulfed in a vicious war Denmark, Finland, Malta, Sweden, Holland, Luxembourg - Not sure but all except Malta today always feature in the best countries to live index. Eire - p1ss poor. Backward. Portugal - Ditto. And us the UK. Desperate to join Europe for a variety of reasons, mainly peace and prosperity, all of which came to pass.
Edited by Kermit8 (18 Dec 2017 10.15am)
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matt_himself  Matataland 18 Dec 17 11.26am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
The European project started in the 1950's so that is my starting point. The bigger picture. Now let's go back and see how today's EU members were doing back then. Spain - right-wing dictatorship, repressed and poor peasantry in many parts. Italy- ravaged by effects of WW2 still. P1ss poor. Lots of emigration. Germany - enough said. Romania, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Latvia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Lithuania, Slovenia - All under the iron fist of a totalitarian Soviet Union or their acolytes. Austria - Occupied by The Allied Forces Cyprus - about to be engulfed in a vicious war Denmark, Finland, Malta, Sweden, Holland, Luxembourg - Not sure but all except Malta today always feature in the best countries to live index. Eire - p1ss poor. Backward. Portugal - Ditto. And us the UK. Desperate to join Europe for a variety of reasons, mainly peace and prosperity, all of which came to pass.
Edited by Kermit8 (18 Dec 2017 10.15am) I think the Marshall Plan had more to do with the rebuilding of Europe after the war than then the spawn of the 1957 Treaty of Rome, which was set up to be a ‘common market’ and a customs union. Read about the Marshall Plan. Then tell me that the EU is responsible for everything you think it is, as you have espoused on this thread. Both of those were noble ideas and, of course, we wanted in. However, as the EEC morphed into the EU, and fantasists such as Delors and Juncker starting demanding a federal superstate, and reversing the referendums of countries that voted against the Lisbon Treaty, and imposed draconian measures on countries like Greece folllowing their economic crash, and imposing their people as rulers in places such as Italy in order that their policies would be instigated post bailout, it’s no wonder people turned around and said, this isn’t what we voted for in 1975, we want out. The Swiss have done alright out of the EU. So have places like Singapore. So have the Australians, it’s not living in a ‘non-EU Cloud Cuckoo Land’ to think we will prosper out of it.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 18 Dec 17 1.42pm |
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What a year it's been... [Tweet Link]
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| CambridgeEagle Sydenham 18 Dec 17 2.55pm |
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Dress like a clown and you'll ended up being viewed as one.
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| .TUX. 18 Dec 17 5.56pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
[Tweet Link]Hmmm, is this the 'apocolypse' that Remainers predicted? Should've bought Bitcoin/cryptos as a hedge i guess.
Buy Litecoin. |
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 18 Dec 17 9.15pm |
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[Tweet Link]
[Tweet Link]
Edited by Penge Eagle (18 Dec 2017 9.15pm)
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| Kermit8 Hevon 18 Dec 17 9.39pm |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
[Tweet Link]
[Tweet Link]
Edited by Penge Eagle (18 Dec 2017 9.15pm) Well that couldn't be more wrong if it tried. Most EU countries have more paid holidays/bank holiday days than the UK and sick pay is not set by the EU but by each country by its own accord. Even The Telegraph is onboard with that [Link]
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 18 Dec 17 11.05pm |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
[Tweet Link]
[Tweet Link]
Edited by Penge Eagle (18 Dec 2017 9.15pm) [Tweet Link]
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 18 Dec 17 11.46pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Well that couldn't be more wrong if it tried. Most EU countries have more paid holidays/bank holiday days than the UK and sick pay is not set by the EU but by each country by its own accord. Even The Telegraph is onboard with that [Link] Your link just talks about sick pay. You are missing the point anyway, it's in reference to Lammy's tweet ("EU red tape") which says rights will be lost on leaving EU when UK sets the rules anyway. If it's set by each country then why do we need the EU then? That's the point. Edited by Penge Eagle (19 Dec 2017 12.08am)
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| Kermit8 Hevon 19 Dec 17 9.35am |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
Your link just talks about sick pay. You are missing the point anyway, it's in reference to Lammy's tweet ("EU red tape" Edited by Penge Eagle (19 Dec 2017 12.08am) Lammy is correct. We signed up to the Social Charter which gives civil rights re: health, employment, etc, which we abide by out of trust and goodwill but when we Leave that sense of moral collective responsibility will go with it. Be of no doubt that the workers will suffer here more under a non-EU aligned Government than under one that is.
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which says rights will be lost on leaving EU when UK sets the rules anyway. If it's set by each country then why do we need the EU then? That's the point.| Penge Eagle Beckenham 19 Dec 17 9.54am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Lammy is correct. We signed up to the Social Charter which gives civil rights re: health, employment, etc, which we abide by out of trust and goodwill but when we Leave that sense of moral collective responsibility will go with it. Be of no doubt that the workers will suffer here more under a non-EU aligned Government than under one that is. Wrong. This is the context of his tweet. Brexiteers: "We don't want EU red tape!" Lammy: "Ah, but this EU red tape you complain about means we have workers' rights in place." Brexiteers: "Each country sets its own laws on this and has nothing to do with the EU. In fact, the UK exceeds all of the EU minimum requirements on workers' rights." Lammy: <silent> Who has said "workers will suffer here more under a non-EU aligned Government", Kermit? More project fear! Edited by Penge Eagle (19 Dec 2017 9.58am)
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 19 Dec 17 10.02am |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
I have always been clear in my mind that the UK citizens will lose their rights under the social charter. I don't see why people think the tories would replace them intact. I would expect things to return to before e.g 2 weeks + public holidays. I remember changing jobs just to get a decent break. No evidence for this assumption at all.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 19 Dec 17 10.07am |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
No evidence for this assumption at all. They want to get rid of the workingtime directive because 48 hours is too short a time to compel people to work for.
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| Kermit8 Hevon 19 Dec 17 10.49am |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
Wrong. This is the context of his tweet. Brexiteers: "We don't want EU red tape!" Lammy: "Ah, but this EU red tape you complain about means we have workers' rights in place." Brexiteers: "Each country sets its own laws on this and has nothing to do with the EU. In fact, the UK exceeds all of the EU minimum requirements on workers' rights." Who has said "workers will suffer here more under a non-EU aligned Government", Kermit? More project fear! Edited by Penge Eagle (19 Dec 2017 9.58am) That is the bit we need to focus on. As I said - we signed up to the Social Chapter which is why the bold line is true....as it stands. We will not need to adhere to it once we Leave so the 'minimum requirement' gear could quite easily be put into reverse with no comeback from the EU. Unlike right now.
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| steeleye20 Croydon 19 Dec 17 10.51am |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
No evidence for this assumption at all. With respect you have to provide evidence. If it is not replaced as is, and I can't see employers and business wanting it, then the situation will revert to what it was before the social charter and other EU law re: workers rights. The UK will not be in the EU and therefore citizens will lose their EU benefits.
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| Kermit8 Hevon 19 Dec 17 10.54am |
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Originally posted by Penge Eagle
No evidence for this assumption at all. Political history tells us that Tories undermine worker's rights. In olde worlde English the term for ' a robber' was funnily enough 'a tory' Portillo and allies fought strongly against the minimum wage when he was a darling of The Party and plenty of Conservatives too against signing up to something as responsible as The Social Chapter. It's just in their nature to help those at the top of the pile more than those nearer the bottom. Then you you have the undermining and decrease in relative terms of funding for health and education when The Blues are in no.10. The future is not bright without our Euro directives and the country being run by a powerful elite with nothing to rein in their excesses. Edited by Kermit8 (19 Dec 2017 10.57am)
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 Hrolf The Ganger 19 Dec 17 10.59am |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
With respect you have to provide evidence. If it is not replaced as is, and I can't see employers and business wanting it, then the situation will revert to what it was before the social charter and other EU law re: workers rights. The UK will not be in the EU and therefore citizens will lose their EU benefits. That is just biased presumption on your part.
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 19 Dec 17 11.00am |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
With respect you have to provide evidence. If it is not replaced as is, and I can't see employers and business wanting it, then the situation will revert to what it was before the social charter and other EU law re: workers rights. The UK will not be in the EU and therefore citizens will lose their EU benefits. No, you said I was wrong with no evidence. It's up to you to provide it, not me. You have zero, that's why.
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 19 Dec 17 11.03am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
That is the bit we need to focus on. As I said - we signed up to the Social Chapter which is why the bold line is true....as it stands. We will not need to adhere to it once we Leave so the 'minimum requirement' gear could quite easily be put into reverse with no comeback from the EU. Unlike right now. It's pure speculation and fear mongering that we MIGHT put it all into reverse. I cannot see any evidence this will happen.
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