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View Sedlescombe's Profile Sedlescombe Flag Sedlescombe 08 Mar 17 1.31pm Send a Private Message to Sedlescombe Add Sedlescombe as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It's a fair question.
Since 1945 which European countries were likely to be in conflict?

Just as it is fair to object to the EU claiming all the credit for "peace in our times" I think to dismiss it as having no contribution to the longest period of peace is also spurious.

One tangible benefit was working with Ireland within the EU having shared interests and working together within the Union to achieve common aims contributed to the building of trust and much improved relationships and this contributed to the success of the peace process taking hold. Is it the only contributing factor? Of course not but it was a key part of that success.

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 08 Mar 17 1.40pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

Just as it is fair to object to the EU claiming all the credit for "peace in our times" I think to dismiss it as having no contribution to the longest period of peace is also spurious.

One tangible benefit was working with Ireland within the EU having shared interests and working together within the Union to achieve common aims contributed to the building of trust and much improved relationships and this contributed to the success of the peace process taking hold. Is it the only contributing factor? Of course not but it was a key part of that success.

The peace process in Northern Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is largely the result of the efforts of Blair.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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View Sedlescombe's Profile Sedlescombe Flag Sedlescombe 08 Mar 17 1.48pm Send a Private Message to Sedlescombe Add Sedlescombe as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

The peace process in Northern Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is largely the result of the efforts of Blair.


Of course it had a significant contribution. from years of hatred and resentment because we were still occupying their country there was a need to negotiate and to work together. you don't think the Irish government were putting pressure on Sinn Fein? I didn't say it was the only thing but it was part of the story.


You are also wildly wrong about Blair being "largely responsible". To her credit Mrs Thatcher had no qualms about negotiating with the IRA. You might also want to google Paddy Mayhew to bring yourself up to speed.

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 08 Mar 17 2.45pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe


Of course it had a significant contribution. from years of hatred and resentment because we were still occupying their country there was a need to negotiate and to work together. you don't think the Irish government were putting pressure on Sinn Fein? I didn't say it was the only thing but it was part of the story.


You are also wildly wrong about Blair being "largely responsible". To her credit Mrs Thatcher had no qualms about negotiating with the IRA. You might also want to google Paddy Mayhew to bring yourself up to speed.

Did the Irish government put pressure on the IRA? I don't know - would make a change from them turning a blind eye though. Even if they did, why is that necessarily because they were in the EU?

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Mar 17 2.50pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

Just as it is fair to object to the EU claiming all the credit for "peace in our times" I think to dismiss it as having no contribution to the longest period of peace is also spurious.

One tangible benefit was working with Ireland within the EU having shared interests and working together within the Union to achieve common aims contributed to the building of trust and much improved relationships and this contributed to the success of the peace process taking hold. Is it the only contributing factor? Of course not but it was a key part of that success.


Was the contribution significant? I'd say no.
Far more significant was the bomb, NATO and a common enemy. Let's also remember that we had peace between 1945 and 1957 with no common market.
The whole argument is desperate and spurious.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Mar 17 3.00pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

The peace process in Northern Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is largely the result of the efforts of Blair.

Mo Mowlem, Gerry Adams and David Trimble for me are probably three of the most significant figures. Blair as always claimed benefit for the work of others.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Mar 17 3.01pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Did the Irish government put pressure on the IRA? I don't know - would make a change from them turning a blind eye though. Even if they did, why is that necessarily because they were in the EU?

The Catholic community referendum on the Good Friday Agreement, certainly did, given its believed over 90% of Catholics in Northern Ireland supported the agreement.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Mar 17 3.07pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It's a fair question.
Since 1945 which European countries were likely to be in conflict?

None, post WWII almost all of their international power basis was gone, and the ensuing wars of national liberation largely ended any real likelihood of coming into conflict.

The power in the world had shifted. The 'imperial' European powers were no longer the big players on the board. That was the Americans and Soviet Union.

If anything, its arguable that a rise of a European Superstate would be more of a risk of conflict, as it would draw its interests inevitably against either the Chinese, Russia Federation and US (if it was to obtain its former power basis).

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 08 Mar 17 3.07pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

The vote in Northern Ireland now split 50-50 between Unionist and Sinn Fein is bound to be a further weakening of the Union.

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 08 Mar 17 3.13pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

None, post WWII almost all of their international power basis was gone, and the ensuing wars of national liberation largely ended any real likelihood of coming into conflict.

The power in the world had shifted. The 'imperial' European powers were no longer the big players on the board. That was the Americans and Soviet Union.

If anything, its arguable that a rise of a European Superstate would be more of a risk of conflict, as it would draw its interests inevitably against either the Chinese, Russia Federation and US (if it was to obtain its former power basis).

Certainly agree with this.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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View matt_himself's Profile matt_himself Flag Matataland 08 Mar 17 8.12pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Originally posted by matt_himself

Nato article 8:

Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty.

[Link]

kind of says that no member of NATO shall attack another member.

Furthermore, Article 5 is very clear on matters:

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .

Is there something in the EU charter which overrides this, Michael?

What a surprise. No response from the lefties.

And I am the 'antagonistic' presence.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Mar 17 8.24pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

None, post WWII almost all of their international power basis was gone, and the ensuing wars of national liberation largely ended any real likelihood of coming into conflict.

The power in the world had shifted. The 'imperial' European powers were no longer the big players on the board. That was the Americans and Soviet Union.

If anything, its arguable that a rise of a European Superstate would be more of a risk of conflict, as it would draw its interests inevitably against either the Chinese, Russia Federation and US (if it was to obtain its former power basis).

Precisely.

 

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