If you think people like JRM, Farage, Gove, Boris or Trump even come close to representing the "proletariat" you have a screw loose. Leaving the EU was never really going to improve the lot of anyone but hedge fund managers and Tory party grandees. I agree that our society is far too unequal and investment in it has been sorely lacking for years now and that the intergenerational contract has been well and truly ripped up by the likes of May, Cameron, Brown, Blair, Major and Thatcher. We need the baby boomers to die off and release their hold over our democracy. Their sheer weight of numbers means they hold the balance of power in elections and (along with their hoarded wealth) the balance of buying power with businesses.

The EU has provided social breaks on what has always been a relatively right wing society and economy in the UK. Leaving it only makes sense if you do the prep BEFOREHAND and when the UK has moved further to the left to allow genuine social and economic safeguards to be put in place which will drive us towards greater equality and far less burden on the planet. We're nowhere near that and with the complete mess the govt has made of Brexit it shouldn't be allowed to happen now. Would be a disaster.

Fight them on the beaches?

Remember, David Cameron was so worried about losing votes to UKIP that he put the referendum in the manifesto to ensure the Tories got in power. They did.

Ironically, if Brexit isn't implemented properly, then Farage will come back to UKIP and though he may not win any seats, the UKIP vote will ensure the Tories lose seats and allow Labour in. The Tories will lose their power.

The biggest mistake was having a 'remainer' (the Maybot) as their party leader.

Remember Vote Leave is about to be outed as having cheated.

Cheated? Do me a favour. They over spent their allocation. So you think the vote should be overturned? Not going to happen.

Edited by Penge Eagle (04 Jul 2018 11.32am)

[Link]

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

I don't like TTIP, but the biggest advocate for it was Cameron. We'd be far more open to this kind of thing post Brexit.

I am not a big fan of the EU, but without proper planning, as we're seeing, Brexit will be a disaster for ordinary people. If we can't do it properly don't do it at all. The Ireland issue also makes it impossible IMO. The Tories running Brexit is much worse than any possible alternative.

Better to have a seat at the table, vote in a left wing government, and reform from within. The idea of a single market and CU is a good one, but certain aspects like TTIP and elements of the rules have gone too far.

As we approach Friday’s Chequers summit the pressure from all sides is building on Theresa May. Latest to have her say is the Brexiter backbench MP Andrea Jenkyns, who has used an interview with ConservativeHome to as good as threaten that the PM will be ousted if she seeks a Norway-style Brexit solution.

Jenkyns said there had been regular meetings and phone calls during the week between “frustrated” backbenchers. An overly-soft Brexit would be “catastrophic for the Conservative party”, she added.

No mention of its impact on the country. Just on the Tories. Clear insight into what they care about.

Also, how do we get ‘more of this post Brexit’?

It is an agreement between the EU and the USA?

Surely Brexit frees us from this sort of stitch up?

Edited by matt_himself (04 Jul 2018 12.00pm)

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

That is a fair question.

But first, why I feel so strongly about defending the referendum result on June 23rd.

Let us put aside the arguments from both sides about the foul play. I suspect that we could get bogged down in trading a variety of issues, with the farce that was Project Fear, promoted with Government support along to the 350 million claims for the NHS and the latest, disputed, comments from the electoral commission. Its all been done to death before and I am sure it will carry on into the future. That is fine but for me, it is not relevant to this particular issue.

For most of us, when we trot along to a polling booth, our individual votes count for very little. Due to the vagaries of our first past the post system, most seats tend to vote one way or the other and you could probably get away with weighing the vote rather than counting it. For example, where I live you could put a chimp in a suit and stick a blue rosette on it and people would still tick the Conservative box.

Now whether this is a positive or not is for a different thread, but I feel it is important to state it because of how that contrasted with what happened on June 23rd, 2016.

On June 23rd, 2016 we had a very rare situation in British politics. A straightforward, binary decision to make. The legislation enabling that referendum had been passed by a massive majority in the House of Commons. Every voter who chose to make the effort could decide whether they wanted the UK to remain inside of the EU or whether they wanted us to leave. And each vote was equally weighted. It mattered not a jolt where you lived. If you met the criteria for being eligible, then your vote mattered. Just two piles of votes and whichever one had the most in at the end won it.

And my side won. A majority of voters decided that the UK was to leave the EU. And that was a decision that the Government had promised to honour.

There were no credible claims of vote-rigging and even the most ardent Remainers are not disputing the legitimacy of the actual voting on the day itself.

Now if that victory is ignored, I believe each of us who took part has a serious question to ask ourselves. Do we believe in democracy? Do we believe that if a Government gives us a choice, along with a pledge to honour that decision and that choice is made, then that decision needs to be acted upon? Because if it is not, what legitimacy does our system of Governance have any more?

Every November we celebrate Remembrance Day. And we are constantly told that the sacrifice of those we honour was made to ensure we had the right to vote freely.

For me, June 23rd was perhaps the purest example of that right.

And if it is betrayed, then I believe that there is a legimate reason to seek the overthrow, by whatever means necessary, of any Government that seeks to scupper that. Up to and including direct action. Appealing directly to the Queen to dissolve the Government and reappoint one who will act on the will of the British people.

Now at some stage in the future, and I would be uncomfortable with it being an option for at least 15 years, I can envisage a scenario in which the British people are offered a chance for us to rejoin the EU or stay outside. So I accept that people can change their minds. But us actually leaving the EU, and for me that includes its defining institutions such as the Single Market and the Customs Union, has to happen. No ifs, no buts. Failure to do so and for me our democracy is dead and buried until such time as it does happen and future vote, on any level, is utterly futile.

I would love a deal with the EU that saw continued trade with as little friction as possible. If you actually read about the dispute concerning the Irish border, then it is nothing more than an administrative issue concerning VAT with perfectly viable tech-based solutions already in existence as the common travel area supersedes EU legislation anyway.

But if that is not possible, then we leave in March, we pay no more money to the EU and we accept whatever happens.

To attempt to deny the British people what they voted for on June 23rd will plunge this country into a crisis the likes of which it has never seen in modern times. With perhaps the General Strikes of 1926 or maybe the disruption in the 1918-19 period (worth looking up and rarely discussed)the best comparisons.

Edited by Matov (04 Jul 2018 3.13pm)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.