This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
Visit the current forum | Forum Rules
|
Originally posted by Mstrobez
You know what’s a bigger threat to the country than economic downturn? Division. The number one issue in this country at the moment is division. I voted to remain, but the idea that you give people a vote and then drop the “it was only advisory” BS because you don’t like the result is utterly absurd. And the people pushing for it are as unreasonable and toxic as the ultra-wing of Brexiters they claim to abhor. They have no interest in trying to unify the country whatsoever. It’s f*** the implications, civil unrest & taking a democratically appointed decision away from millions of people - reverse Brexit or go to hell. And for those reasons alone, if there was another EU referendum tomorrow, I’d vote to leave. Not to stand with the disaster capitalists or the Dickheads who blame all the countries problems on immigrants. But to stand for democracy. Because democracy peaked in 2016? We had a vote on this in 1975 and then Cameron held another vote which clearly didn't respect the result of that democratic exercise, despite that one having a much greater majority. At what point are you allowed to change your mind then? Ireland held a vote twice on the Lisbon treaty and this was generally very well conducted as it provided a general mood/instruction, then significant work and research was done to inform the public and formulate a position and then the public was reengaged on a more specific question and they gave a clear answer. More recently the GFA was based on referendums, however Rees-Mogg et al are saying it's had it's day and should be sacrificed on the alter of high Brexithood. Are we really saying we can no longer exercise judgement as a people or change our minds or vote on something more than once? Are we saying our democracy now diminishes and we shouldn't be allowed to vote again on Brexit or any related matter? Ridiculous.
|
|
|
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
Because democracy peaked in 2016? We had a vote on this in 1975 and then Cameron held another vote which clearly didn't respect the result of that democratic exercise, despite that one having a much greater majority. At what point are you allowed to change your mind then? Ireland held a vote twice on the Lisbon treaty and this was generally very well conducted as it provided a general mood/instruction, then significant work and research was done to inform the public and formulate a position and then the public was reengaged on a more specific question and they gave a clear answer. More recently the GFA was based on referendums, however Rees-Mogg et al are saying it's had it's day and should be sacrificed on the alter of high Brexithood. Are we really saying we can no longer exercise judgement as a people or change our minds or vote on something more than once? Are we saying our democracy now diminishes and we shouldn't be allowed to vote again on Brexit or any related matter? Ridiculous.
It didn’t peak in 2016 at all. But there was a vote. The largest in British history. People voted to leave the European Union. We need to leave the European Union, it’s as simple as that. Think of the implications of reversing the result of that for millions of people. There would be civil disobedience and you are very very naive to think that the result would be any different in a second referendum. Since day one in the Brexit debate. There have been 2 wings that have been focused on entirely. The ultra remainers & ultra leavers. Both are as unreasonable, toxic and dishonest as eachother. It’s nothing other than tribalism. The reality is that in the majority. There are a lot of decent people stuck in the middle who voted both remain and leave. But could recognise fully the legitimacy of the other sides arguments. We now hear from the 2nd referendum campaigners about all those poor leave voters who were unsure and would now vote differently. We NEVER hear about the other side: remainers who could’ve easily voted leave in the first place and would vote differently in another referendum. I happen to be one of them. The job for any government now is to implement the result of the referendum whilst attempting to secure the best possible outcome for as close to 100% of people as possible. Trying to reverse Brexit before we’ve even left would be a cynical undermining of democracy. I literally cannot believe anyone would argue that it wouldn’t be just because it suits their side of the argument and what they personally think will be best. Principles *should* ALWAYS trump personal political positions. But I’m starting to see a side of the ultra wing of remainers I refer to, that would suggest they have none whatsoever.
We're the Arthur over ere! |
|
|
Originally posted by pefwin
that was years ago when we were told £350mn a week for the NHS and all non English would leave. You have got to be kidding. As if Remain told the truth. How old are you?
|
|
|
Originally posted by johnno42000
Why not have a 'soft' leave and then have another referendum in a few years time to see if that is enough, too much or just right and then take the appropriate action based on that vote. There’s a guy called Yanis Varoufakis who believes we should extend the implementation period as he feels we’d need a lot longer to negotiate our way around the beurecracy of the EU if we want a meaningful deal to leave that still protects the economy. I happen to agree mostly with his type of position.
We're the Arthur over ere! |
|
|
Originally posted by Mstrobez
It didn’t peak in 2016 at all. But there was a vote. The largest in British history. People voted to leave the European Union. We need to leave the European Union, it’s as simple as that. Think of the implications of reversing the result of that for millions of people. There would be civil disobedience and you are very very naive to think that the result would be any different in a second referendum. Since day one in the Brexit debate. There have been 2 wings that have been focused on entirely. The ultra remainers & ultra leavers. Both are as unreasonable, toxic and dishonest as eachother. It’s nothing other than tribalism. The reality is that in the majority. There are a lot of decent people stuck in the middle who voted both remain and leave. But could recognise fully the legitimacy of the other sides arguments. We now hear from the 2nd referendum campaigners about all those poor leave voters who were unsure and would now vote differently. We NEVER hear about the other side: remainers who could’ve easily voted leave in the first place and would vote differently in another referendum. I happen to be one of them. The job for any government now is to implement the result of the referendum whilst attempting to secure the best possible outcome for as close to 100% of people as possible. Trying to reverse Brexit before we’ve even left would be a cynical undermining of democracy. I literally cannot believe anyone would argue that it wouldn’t be just because it suits their side of the argument and what they personally think will be best. Principles *should* ALWAYS trump personal political positions. But I’m starting to see a side of the ultra wing of remainers I refer to, that would suggest they have none whatsoever. I disagree. The result may well be exactly the same, but I can't see why affirming this would be any sort of perversion of democracy. There has been sufficient gap and significant changes in people's understanding of the issues. The Irish border for instance was barely mentioned in the run up to the referendum. There are plenty of other factors that were also not spoken about or misrepresented by both sides. Also the amount of red tape created by Brexit is staggering. I understood from the leave campaign there would be less, but reading these no deal technical notices it's clear there would be swathes of additional bureaucracy created by Brexit. Given the Irish border issue I still believe the choice will end up being BINO or no Brexit as the ERG proposals don't work, Chequers doesn't work and the Tories have promised no Irish sea border and maintaining the same conditions in NI and rUK. This means soft soft Brexit without the existence Unicorn technology.
|
|
|
Originally posted by Mstrobez
There’s a guy called Yanis Varoufakis who believes we should extend the implementation period as he feels we’d need a lot longer to negotiate our way around the beurecracy of the EU if we want a meaningful deal to leave that still protects the economy. I happen to agree mostly with his type of position. What's happened in Greece makes me scecptical, we just need to organise our own deals with the countries we wish to trade with.
|
|
|
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
I disagree. The result may well be exactly the same, but I can't see why affirming this would be any sort of perversion of democracy. There has been sufficient gap and significant changes in people's understanding of the issues. The Irish border for instance was barely mentioned in the run up to the referendum. There are plenty of other factors that were also not spoken about or misrepresented by both sides. Also the amount of red tape created by Brexit is staggering. I understood from the leave campaign there would be less, but reading these no deal technical notices it's clear there would be swathes of additional bureaucracy created by Brexit. Given the Irish border issue I still believe the choice will end up being BINO or no Brexit as the ERG proposals don't work, Chequers doesn't work and the Tories have promised no Irish sea border and maintaining the same conditions in NI and rUK. This means soft soft Brexit without the existence Unicorn technology. What is the point of a second referendum?
|
|
|
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
What is the point of a second referendum? Corbyn most certainly doesn’t want another in/out vote. No idea why you’re even suggesting he does. It’s that thing again where someone’s not on your side, so everything bad is automatically associated with them. It’s the Blairites a staunch leaver such as yourself should be concerned with. Edited by Mstrobez (24 Sep 2018 4.50pm)
We're the Arthur over ere! |
|
|
Originally posted by Mstrobez
Corbyn most certainly doesn’t want another in/out vote. No idea why you’re even suggesting he does. It’s that thing again where someone’s not on your side, so everything bad is automatically associated with them. It’s the Blairites a staunch leaver such as yourself should be concerned with. Edited by Mstrobez (24 Sep 2018 4.50pm)
|
|
|
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
We’re discussing Brexit. Not having an unprovoked bit of good old Corbyn bashing. Edited by Mstrobez (23 Nov 2018 11.59am)
We're the Arthur over ere! |
|
|
Originally posted by Mstrobez
Calm down. We’re discussing Brexit. Not having an unprovoked bit of good old Corbyn bashing. Edited by Mstrobez (24 Sep 2018 5.29pm) Booo! We know why Remainers want another referendum. Because they lost the first one. It's pathetic.
|
|
| pefwin |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
You have got to be kidding. As if Remain told the truth. How old are you? So they lied and all you can say is that you think the Remainers lied as well. Playground thinking at its finest.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
|
|
Originally posted by pefwin
So they lied and all you can say is that you think the Remainers lied as well. Playground thinking at its finest. No brains, that IS the point.
|
|
|
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
No brains, that IS the point. But you want a definite 'out' of the EU next March, which you are not going to get, the Tory EU paranoia will consume them, and therefore us, ad infinitum.
|
|
| pefwin |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
No brains, that IS the point. If this what you truly feel that all politicians lie all of the time, you are not only paranoid but showing the early signs of Schizophrenia.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
|
|
Originally posted by pefwin
If this what you truly feel that all politicians lie all of the time, you are not only paranoid but showing the early signs of Schizophrenia.
Classy. Are we really having this conversation?
|
|
|
Originally posted by pefwin
If this what you truly feel that all politicians lie all of the time, you are not only paranoid but showing the early signs of Schizophrenia.
Pefwin, give us a laugh and tell us if you think David Cameron is a liar or not?
|
|
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2025 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.