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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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Mstrobez Flag 24 Sep 18 3.31pm

You know what’s a bigger threat to the country than economic downturn? Division. The number one issue in this country at the moment is division. I voted to remain, but the idea that you give people a vote and then drop the “it was only advisory” BS because you don’t like the result is utterly absurd. And the people pushing for it are as unreasonable and toxic as the ultra-wing of Brexiters they claim to abhor. They have no interest in trying to unify the country whatsoever. It’s f*** the implications, civil unrest & taking a democratically appointed decision away from millions of people - reverse Brexit or go to hell.

And for those reasons alone, if there was another EU referendum tomorrow, I’d vote to leave.

Not to stand with the disaster capitalists or the Dickheads who blame all the countries problems on immigrants. But to stand for democracy.

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 24 Sep 18 3.45pm

Originally posted by Mstrobez

You know what’s a bigger threat to the country than economic downturn? Division. The number one issue in this country at the moment is division. I voted to remain, but the idea that you give people a vote and then drop the “it was only advisory” BS because you don’t like the result is utterly absurd. And the people pushing for it are as unreasonable and toxic as the ultra-wing of Brexiters they claim to abhor. They have no interest in trying to unify the country whatsoever. It’s f*** the implications, civil unrest & taking a democratically appointed decision away from millions of people - reverse Brexit or go to hell.

And for those reasons alone, if there was another EU referendum tomorrow, I’d vote to leave.

Not to stand with the disaster capitalists or the Dickheads who blame all the countries problems on immigrants. But to stand for democracy.

Because democracy peaked in 2016? We had a vote on this in 1975 and then Cameron held another vote which clearly didn't respect the result of that democratic exercise, despite that one having a much greater majority. At what point are you allowed to change your mind then? Ireland held a vote twice on the Lisbon treaty and this was generally very well conducted as it provided a general mood/instruction, then significant work and research was done to inform the public and formulate a position and then the public was reengaged on a more specific question and they gave a clear answer.

More recently the GFA was based on referendums, however Rees-Mogg et al are saying it's had it's day and should be sacrificed on the alter of high Brexithood.

Are we really saying we can no longer exercise judgement as a people or change our minds or vote on something more than once? Are we saying our democracy now diminishes and we shouldn't be allowed to vote again on Brexit or any related matter?

Ridiculous.


Pushing through a damaging, ill prepared Brexit isn't going to make the country any less divided. I think Brexit will be more sclerotic than if Cameron had not held the vote in the first place. It will harden divisions and the resentment of the young towards the old and those who want to live in an open society against those who don't. A second vote at least convince some people that people were less duped into Brexit as there has been far more debate on it and dispelling of myths on both sides. Plus we'd know what the deal would be and that it wouldn't deliver "the exact same benefits" and what the proposed immigration system would be.

 

Mstrobez Flag 24 Sep 18 4.01pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Because democracy peaked in 2016? We had a vote on this in 1975 and then Cameron held another vote which clearly didn't respect the result of that democratic exercise, despite that one having a much greater majority. At what point are you allowed to change your mind then? Ireland held a vote twice on the Lisbon treaty and this was generally very well conducted as it provided a general mood/instruction, then significant work and research was done to inform the public and formulate a position and then the public was reengaged on a more specific question and they gave a clear answer.

More recently the GFA was based on referendums, however Rees-Mogg et al are saying it's had it's day and should be sacrificed on the alter of high Brexithood.

Are we really saying we can no longer exercise judgement as a people or change our minds or vote on something more than once? Are we saying our democracy now diminishes and we shouldn't be allowed to vote again on Brexit or any related matter?

Ridiculous.


Pushing through a damaging, ill prepared Brexit isn't going to make the country any less divided. I think Brexit will be more sclerotic than if Cameron had not held the vote in the first place. It will harden divisions and the resentment of the young towards the old and those who want to live in an open society against those who don't. A second vote at least convince some people that people were less duped into Brexit as there has been far more debate on it and dispelling of myths on both sides. Plus we'd know what the deal would be and that it wouldn't deliver "the exact same benefits" and what the proposed immigration system would be.

It didn’t peak in 2016 at all. But there was a vote. The largest in British history. People voted to leave the European Union. We need to leave the European Union, it’s as simple as that. Think of the implications of reversing the result of that for millions of people. There would be civil disobedience and you are very very naive to think that the result would be any different in a second referendum.

Since day one in the Brexit debate. There have been 2 wings that have been focused on entirely. The ultra remainers & ultra leavers. Both are as unreasonable, toxic and dishonest as eachother. It’s nothing other than tribalism. The reality is that in the majority. There are a lot of decent people stuck in the middle who voted both remain and leave. But could recognise fully the legitimacy of the other sides arguments. We now hear from the 2nd referendum campaigners about all those poor leave voters who were unsure and would now vote differently. We NEVER hear about the other side: remainers who could’ve easily voted leave in the first place and would vote differently in another referendum. I happen to be one of them.

The job for any government now is to implement the result of the referendum whilst attempting to secure the best possible outcome for as close to 100% of people as possible. Trying to reverse Brexit before we’ve even left would be a cynical undermining of democracy. I literally cannot believe anyone would argue that it wouldn’t be just because it suits their side of the argument and what they personally think will be best.

Principles *should* ALWAYS trump personal political positions. But I’m starting to see a side of the ultra wing of remainers I refer to, that would suggest they have none whatsoever.

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 24 Sep 18 4.16pm

Originally posted by pefwin

that was years ago when we were told £350mn a week for the NHS and all non English would leave.

You have got to be kidding.

As if Remain told the truth. How old are you?

 

johnno42000 Flag 24 Sep 18 4.18pm

Why not have a 'soft' leave and then have another referendum in a few years time to see if that is enough, too much or just right and then take the appropriate action based on that vote.

 


'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'

Mstrobez Flag 24 Sep 18 4.26pm

Originally posted by johnno42000

Why not have a 'soft' leave and then have another referendum in a few years time to see if that is enough, too much or just right and then take the appropriate action based on that vote.

There’s a guy called Yanis Varoufakis who believes we should extend the implementation period as he feels we’d need a lot longer to negotiate our way around the beurecracy of the EU if we want a meaningful deal to leave that still protects the economy.

I happen to agree mostly with his type of position.

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 24 Sep 18 4.37pm

Originally posted by Mstrobez

It didn’t peak in 2016 at all. But there was a vote. The largest in British history. People voted to leave the European Union. We need to leave the European Union, it’s as simple as that. Think of the implications of reversing the result of that for millions of people. There would be civil disobedience and you are very very naive to think that the result would be any different in a second referendum.

Since day one in the Brexit debate. There have been 2 wings that have been focused on entirely. The ultra remainers & ultra leavers. Both are as unreasonable, toxic and dishonest as eachother. It’s nothing other than tribalism. The reality is that in the majority. There are a lot of decent people stuck in the middle who voted both remain and leave. But could recognise fully the legitimacy of the other sides arguments. We now hear from the 2nd referendum campaigners about all those poor leave voters who were unsure and would now vote differently. We NEVER hear about the other side: remainers who could’ve easily voted leave in the first place and would vote differently in another referendum. I happen to be one of them.

The job for any government now is to implement the result of the referendum whilst attempting to secure the best possible outcome for as close to 100% of people as possible. Trying to reverse Brexit before we’ve even left would be a cynical undermining of democracy. I literally cannot believe anyone would argue that it wouldn’t be just because it suits their side of the argument and what they personally think will be best.

Principles *should* ALWAYS trump personal political positions. But I’m starting to see a side of the ultra wing of remainers I refer to, that would suggest they have none whatsoever.

I disagree. The result may well be exactly the same, but I can't see why affirming this would be any sort of perversion of democracy. There has been sufficient gap and significant changes in people's understanding of the issues. The Irish border for instance was barely mentioned in the run up to the referendum. There are plenty of other factors that were also not spoken about or misrepresented by both sides.

Also the amount of red tape created by Brexit is staggering. I understood from the leave campaign there would be less, but reading these no deal technical notices it's clear there would be swathes of additional bureaucracy created by Brexit.

Given the Irish border issue I still believe the choice will end up being BINO or no Brexit as the ERG proposals don't work, Chequers doesn't work and the Tories have promised no Irish sea border and maintaining the same conditions in NI and rUK. This means soft soft Brexit without the existence Unicorn technology.

 

chris123 Flag hove actually 24 Sep 18 4.40pm

Originally posted by Mstrobez

There’s a guy called Yanis Varoufakis who believes we should extend the implementation period as he feels we’d need a lot longer to negotiate our way around the beurecracy of the EU if we want a meaningful deal to leave that still protects the economy.

I happen to agree mostly with his type of position.

What's happened in Greece makes me scecptical, we just need to organise our own deals with the countries we wish to trade with.

 

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 24 Sep 18 4.45pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

I disagree. The result may well be exactly the same, but I can't see why affirming this would be any sort of perversion of democracy. There has been sufficient gap and significant changes in people's understanding of the issues. The Irish border for instance was barely mentioned in the run up to the referendum. There are plenty of other factors that were also not spoken about or misrepresented by both sides.

Also the amount of red tape created by Brexit is staggering. I understood from the leave campaign there would be less, but reading these no deal technical notices it's clear there would be swathes of additional bureaucracy created by Brexit.

Given the Irish border issue I still believe the choice will end up being BINO or no Brexit as the ERG proposals don't work, Chequers doesn't work and the Tories have promised no Irish sea border and maintaining the same conditions in NI and rUK. This means soft soft Brexit without the existence Unicorn technology.

What is the point of a second referendum?
Why ask unqualified people to vote about details? How will this improve anything?
It's all political games nonsense and you know it.
If you are suggesting that we have another in/out vote, you can take it and shove it up Jeremy Corbyn's commie arse.

 

Mstrobez Flag 24 Sep 18 4.49pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

What is the point of a second referendum?
Why ask unqualified people to vote about details? How will this improve anything?
It's all political games nonsense and you know it.
If you are suggesting that we have another in/out vote, you can take it and shove it up Jeremy Corbyn's commie arse.

Corbyn most certainly doesn’t want another in/out vote. No idea why you’re even suggesting he does.

It’s that thing again where someone’s not on your side, so everything bad is automatically associated with them. It’s the Blairites a staunch leaver such as yourself should be concerned with.

Edited by Mstrobez (24 Sep 2018 4.50pm)

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 24 Sep 18 4.54pm

Originally posted by Mstrobez

Corbyn most certainly doesn’t want another in/out vote. No idea why you’re even suggesting he does.

It’s that thing again where someone’s not on your side, so everything bad is automatically associated with them. It’s the Blairites a staunch leaver such as yourself should be concerned with.

Edited by Mstrobez (24 Sep 2018 4.50pm)


But Cambridge does.
I care not one jot what Corbyn or his shambles of a party claims to want. They are desperate to come up with a strategy to win the next election but are straddled across the fence on Brexit. If they support a second referendum they are screwed and if Corbyn remains leader they are screwed. I can't believe that the British public would vote for such a shambolic, far left infiltrated party even with the shower of s***e we currently have.

 

Mstrobez Flag 24 Sep 18 5.26pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger


But Cambridge does.
I care not one jot what Corbyn or his shambles of a party claims to want. They are desperate to come up with a strategy to win the next election but are straddled across the fence on Brexit. If they support a second referendum they are screwed and if Corbyn remains leader they are screwed. I can't believe that the British public would vote for such a shambolic, far left infiltrated party even with the shower of s***e we currently have.

We’re discussing Brexit. Not having an unprovoked bit of good old Corbyn bashing.

Edited by Mstrobez (23 Nov 2018 11.59am)

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 24 Sep 18 6.55pm

Originally posted by Mstrobez

Calm down. We’re discussing Brexit. Not having an unprovoked bit of good old Corbyn bashing.

Edited by Mstrobez (24 Sep 2018 5.29pm)

Booo!

We know why Remainers want another referendum. Because they lost the first one. It's pathetic.
Voting on the deal is equally ridiculous. How will that improve anything? Answer, it won't.

 

pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 24 Sep 18 7.24pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You have got to be kidding.

As if Remain told the truth. How old are you?

So they lied and all you can say is that you think the Remainers lied as well.

Playground thinking at its finest.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 24 Sep 18 7.36pm

Leaving the EU is the next step in the tories continuing obsession with Europe.

After next March they will be even more consumed by it than before.

It is the hundred years war, we are 10 years in.

 

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 24 Sep 18 7.52pm

Originally posted by pefwin

So they lied and all you can say is that you think the Remainers lied as well.

Playground thinking at its finest.

No brains, that IS the point.
Politicians don't tell the truth.
The idea that anyone is surprised by this is laughable and in your case, disingenuous.

 

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 24 Sep 18 8.47pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

No brains, that IS the point.
Politicians don't tell the truth.
The idea that anyone is surprised by this is laughable and in your case, disingenuous.

But you want a definite 'out' of the EU next March, which you are not going to get, the Tory EU paranoia will consume them, and therefore us, ad infinitum.


 

pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 24 Sep 18 9.01pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

No brains, that IS the point.
Politicians don't tell the truth.
The idea that anyone is surprised by this is laughable and in your case, disingenuous.

If this what you truly feel that all politicians lie all of the time, you are not only paranoid but showing the early signs of Schizophrenia.


If so, see a doctor as you could retire early on ill health grounds.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 24 Sep 18 9.16pm

Originally posted by pefwin

If this what you truly feel that all politicians lie all of the time, you are not only paranoid but showing the early signs of Schizophrenia.


If so, see a doctor as you could retire early on ill health grounds.

Classy.
Why is everything an absolute with you? I'm sure politicians tell the truth when it suits them but politics is about being economical with the truth.

Are we really having this conversation?

 

dannyboy1978 Flag 25 Sep 18 10.53am

Originally posted by pefwin

If this what you truly feel that all politicians lie all of the time, you are not only paranoid but showing the early signs of Schizophrenia.


If so, see a doctor as you could retire early on ill health grounds.

Pefwin, give us a laugh and tell us if you think David Cameron is a liar or not?

[Link]

 

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