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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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Kermit8 Hevon 08 Jun 16 10.02am
I still don't quite get why the Brexiteers mind fellow Europeans coming here. We love going to their places for short or long term stays and we have loads of things in common. And what right do those same Brexiteers have to put hurdles in the way of tens of millions of young British people over the next few decades who could have the opportunity, should they so wish, to live and work abroad within the EU? Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 08 Jun 16 10.02am

I still don't quite get why the Brexiteers mind fellow Europeans coming here. We love going to their places for short or long term stays and we have loads of things in common.

And what right do those same Brexiteers have to put hurdles in the way of tens of millions of young British people over the next few decades who could have the opportunity, should they so wish, to live and work abroad within the EU?

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

chris123 hove actually 08 Jun 16 10.04am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Its the curse of modern politics, 'always tell the voter what the voter wants to hear' and all that. Never mind the ballots.... Well remember Donald Rumsfeld's, known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns? It's very difficult to predict what our internal model would look in 10 years if we leave versus 10 years if we stay, because there are so many variables.

chris123

hove actually 08 Jun 16 10.04am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Its the curse of modern politics, 'always tell the voter what the voter wants to hear' and all that. Never mind the ballots....

Well remember Donald Rumsfeld's, known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns? It's very difficult to predict what our internal model would look in 10 years if we leave versus 10 years if we stay, because there are so many variables.

Lyons550 Shirley 08 Jun 16 10.04am
Originally posted by nickgusset Dave was the same. Terrible moderating from itv. Didn't challenge the 50% of laws are from EU statement. Tis actually 13% Yes why didn't they go head to head ? Not saying you're wrong Nick...but where did you get this stat from? The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 08 Jun 16 10.04am

Originally posted by nickgusset

Dave was the same. Terrible moderating from itv. Didn't challenge the 50% of laws are from EU statement. Tis actually 13%

Yes why didn't they go head to head ?

Not saying you're wrong Nick...but where did you get this stat from?

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Rudi Hedman Caterham 08 Jun 16 10.13am
Originally posted by Kermit8 I still don't quite get why the Brexiteers mind fellow Europeans coming here. We love going to their places for short or long term stays and we have loads of things in common. And what right do those same Brexiteers have to put hurdles in the way of tens of millions of young British people over the next few decades who could have the opportunity, should they so wish, to live and work abroad within the EU? That's as far as it will go for a very very very high percentage of those tens of millions, a dream. In 10 or 20 years they'll wish we weren't in the EU when they have to live in some place they don't want to or in the place they do want to but on the 8th floor for the next 15 years because it takes 1 hour rather than 2 hours to get to work. Then there's competition in their work search and other projects the EU are keeping schtum about until after the EU and the likely closer political union which could happen if the EU ignore the pitiful Dave reforms. Anyone who moans after this referendum I will ask what they voted for and laugh if they voted remain. Edited by Rudi Hedman (08 Jun 2016 10.14am) COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 08 Jun 16 10.13am

Originally posted by Kermit8

I still don't quite get why the Brexiteers mind fellow Europeans coming here. We love going to their places for short or long term stays and we have loads of things in common.

And what right do those same Brexiteers have to put hurdles in the way of tens of millions of young British people over the next few decades who could have the opportunity, should they so wish, to live and work abroad within the EU?

That's as far as it will go for a very very very high percentage of those tens of millions, a dream. In 10 or 20 years they'll wish we weren't in the EU when they have to live in some place they don't want to or in the place they do want to but on the 8th floor for the next 15 years because it takes 1 hour rather than 2 hours to get to work.

Then there's competition in their work search and other projects the EU are keeping schtum about until after the EU and the likely closer political union which could happen if the EU ignore the pitiful Dave reforms.

Anyone who moans after this referendum I will ask what they voted for and laugh if they voted remain.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (08 Jun 2016 10.14am)

COYP

Rudi Hedman Caterham 08 Jun 16 10.21am
Originally posted by nickgusset Back to the referendum, the more research i do, the more I am finding it hard to make a choice. I was surprised to see that contributions to the EU form a tiny part of actual U.K spending. This made me think that it is a small price to play to stay within a large trading block. I see myself as British and European, however the jingoism that some seem to associate with national 'pride' sits uneasy with me as it can verge on racism. I'm also perturbed by all the things that various brexiters claim we could spend the money saved on. particularly when you get the likes og Gove and IDS suddenly caring about the NHS whilst being in a party that is decimating it in order to privatise. I agree that the eu has done a good job ensuring rights for individuals across the eu, however the fact that those behind the scenes so to speak are pushing a neoliberal agenda. I think that the role of MEP's should be played up, after all they are the ones who vote on plans put forward by the commision - it's upsetting that our UKIP representatives in th european parliament are reticent to vote on many things, it's hardly helping us get the best outcomes for U.K citizens is it? The fact that we haven't had any sort of a clear idea what would happen post brexit pushes me toward remain, as does the fact that we have a much better chance of reform if we stay in and find like minded idealists across the continent to push a better agenda. Also pushing me towards remain is the fact I think that an exit would allow the currenyt lot in power to push forward ideological austerity meaures. However, counter to this, I think the EU have been complicit in stitching Greece up so much that they have no chance of sorting our their mess as debt interest is in Wonga proportions. Additionally the fact that they've been forced to hand over public assets to conglomerates for peanuts sits uneasily with me. What to do? The net £8.5 billion should be calculated against govt spending or more specifically borrowing. Borrowing was £160 billion at its peak and now it's at £90 billion or 80 with a target to reach a surplus before 2020. So that £8.5 billion does matter. Sounds like Gordon Brown being profligate with £8.5 billion. Do you really think we, with any MEP's of any kind and only a 7% share could ever get what we want through? We haven't so far, what makes you think we ever will? It's all stitched up and our MEP's are just spectators. I agree on the workers' rights though. I remember when they came in. I remember hearing about the agency worker holiday thing and couldn't believe it happened. Sounded similar to German renters' rights to me. We can still have those here outside the EU or you vote out the tories if they reverse it. Edited by Rudi Hedman (08 Jun 2016 10.25am) COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 08 Jun 16 10.21am

Originally posted by nickgusset

Back to the referendum, the more research i do, the more I am finding it hard to make a choice. I was surprised to see that contributions to the EU form a tiny part of actual U.K spending. This made me think that it is a small price to play to stay within a large trading block. I see myself as British and European, however the jingoism that some seem to associate with national 'pride' sits uneasy with me as it can verge on racism. I'm also perturbed by all the things that various brexiters claim we could spend the money saved on. particularly when you get the likes og Gove and IDS suddenly caring about the NHS whilst being in a party that is decimating it in order to privatise.
I agree that the eu has done a good job ensuring rights for individuals across the eu, however the fact that those behind the scenes so to speak are pushing a neoliberal agenda.
I think that the role of MEP's should be played up, after all they are the ones who vote on plans put forward by the commision - it's upsetting that our UKIP representatives in th european parliament are reticent to vote on many things, it's hardly helping us get the best outcomes for U.K citizens is it?

The fact that we haven't had any sort of a clear idea what would happen post brexit pushes me toward remain, as does the fact that we have a much better chance of reform if we stay in and find like minded idealists across the continent to push a better agenda. Also pushing me towards remain is the fact I think that an exit would allow the currenyt lot in power to push forward ideological austerity meaures. However, counter to this, I think the EU have been complicit in stitching Greece up so much that they have no chance of sorting our their mess as debt interest is in Wonga proportions. Additionally the fact that they've been forced to hand over public assets to conglomerates for peanuts sits uneasily with me.

What to do?

The net £8.5 billion should be calculated against govt spending or more specifically borrowing. Borrowing was £160 billion at its peak and now it's at £90 billion or 80 with a target to reach a surplus before 2020. So that £8.5 billion does matter. Sounds like Gordon Brown being profligate with £8.5 billion.

Do you really think we, with any MEP's of any kind and only a 7% share could ever get what we want through? We haven't so far, what makes you think we ever will? It's all stitched up and our MEP's are just spectators.

I agree on the workers' rights though. I remember when they came in. I remember hearing about the agency worker holiday thing and couldn't believe it happened. Sounded similar to German renters' rights to me. We can still have those here outside the EU or you vote out the tories if they reverse it.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (08 Jun 2016 10.25am)

COYP

johnfirewall 08 Jun 16 10.28am
Originally posted by Kermit8 I still don't quite get why the Brexiteers mind fellow Europeans coming here. We love going to their places for short or long term stays and we have loads of things in common. And what right do those same Brexiteers have to put hurdles in the way of tens of millions of young British people over the next few decades who could have the opportunity, should they so wish, to live and work abroad within the EU? Because they're racist? I actually saw a post on Facebook from a guy declaring that he wasn't and therefore would vote to remain. Is the Asian guy pulling Dave up on migration last night an outlier? We'll never know how many morons are voting Remain so as to distance themselves from those who oppose migration. It could be millions such is the nature of the left I don't know why people talk like this as the only issue. What's for certain is that if you're having to look at what the other side are doing, you're a bit lost and have given up on the idea that EU workers benefit the economy. Edited by johnfirewall (08 Jun 2016 10.32am)

johnfirewall

08 Jun 16 10.28am

Originally posted by Kermit8

I still don't quite get why the Brexiteers mind fellow Europeans coming here. We love going to their places for short or long term stays and we have loads of things in common.

Because they're racist?

I actually saw a post on Facebook from a guy declaring that he wasn't and therefore would vote to remain. Is the Asian guy pulling Dave up on migration last night an outlier?

We'll never know how many morons are voting Remain so as to distance themselves from those who oppose migration. It could be millions such is the nature of the left

I don't know why people talk like this as the only issue. What's for certain is that if you're having to look at what the other side are doing, you're a bit lost and have given up on the idea that EU workers benefit the economy.

Edited by johnfirewall (08 Jun 2016 10.32am)

Kermit8 Hevon 08 Jun 16 10.36am
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Edited by Rudi Hedman (08 Jun 2016 10.14am) No.1 priority for me has always been continuation of the long-term peace and if we 'remain' that keeps my kids and grandkids and great-grandkids safe and into the next century. Happy with that. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 08 Jun 16 10.36am

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Edited by Rudi Hedman (08 Jun 2016 10.14am)

No.1 priority for me has always been continuation of the long-term peace and if we 'remain' that keeps my kids and grandkids and great-grandkids safe and into the next century. Happy with that.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

johnfirewall 08 Jun 16 10.43am
Originally posted by Kermit8 No.1 priority for me has always been continuation of the long-term peace and if we 'remain' that keeps my kids and grandkids and great-grandkids safe and into the next century. Happy with that. What does the EU do in terms of peace? We're not leaving NATO. Unless this a Putin thing whereby we'd still be defended by other members. Otherwise who are you anticipating attacking us other than terrorists from within the EU?

johnfirewall

08 Jun 16 10.43am

Originally posted by Kermit8

No.1 priority for me has always been continuation of the long-term peace and if we 'remain' that keeps my kids and grandkids and great-grandkids safe and into the next century. Happy with that.

What does the EU do in terms of peace? We're not leaving NATO.

Unless this a Putin thing whereby we'd still be defended by other members.

Otherwise who are you anticipating attacking us other than terrorists from within the EU?

Kermit8 Hevon 08 Jun 16 10.49am
Originally posted by johnfirewall What does the EU do in terms of peace? We're not leaving NATO. Unless this a Putin thing whereby we'd still be defended by other members. Otherwise who are you anticipating attacking us other than terrorists from within the EU? EU breaks up and years down the line conflict over land, water, sea borders, political parties, ideologies, etc, - the usual stuff - and idiots start fighting. Watch this mesmerising 3min vid and tell me what you think will probably happen conflict-wise in the future if we end up going our separate ways? [Link] History: best to learn from it. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 08 Jun 16 10.49am

Originally posted by johnfirewall

What does the EU do in terms of peace? We're not leaving NATO.

Unless this a Putin thing whereby we'd still be defended by other members.

Otherwise who are you anticipating attacking us other than terrorists from within the EU?

EU breaks up and years down the line conflict over land, water, sea borders, political parties, ideologies, etc, - the usual stuff - and idiots start fighting.

Watch this mesmerising 3min vid and tell me what you think will probably happen conflict-wise in the future if we end up going our separate ways?

[Link]

History: best to learn from it.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

bubble wrap Carparks in South East London 08 Jun 16 10.52am
Originally posted by Kermit8 No.1 priority for me has always been continuation of the long-term peace and if we 'remain' that keeps my kids and grandkids and great-grandkids safe and into the next century. Happy with that. So in your mind staying in the EU will keep future generations safer than leaving?. Its the kind of argument that those trying to encourage people to stay come up with without backing it up. I can think of many reasons why leaving the EU will make us safer than actually staying. Just stopping the flow of immigrants will be a start. The money our country wastes on the EU is criminal and put into our own economy will help improve the NHS,Policing,Security etc making the UK a safer place to live in. The salaries that MEP's get for doing ery little is obscene too. Its akin to the FA. Time to stop and time to get the UK being the great country its was and still can be if we Exit now before its too late.

bubble wrap

Carparks in South East London 08 Jun 16 10.52am

Originally posted by Kermit8

No.1 priority for me has always been continuation of the long-term peace and if we 'remain' that keeps my kids and grandkids and great-grandkids safe and into the next century. Happy with that.

So in your mind staying in the EU will keep future generations safer than leaving?. Its the kind of argument that those trying to encourage people to stay come up with without backing it up. I can think of many reasons why leaving the EU will make us safer than actually staying. Just stopping the flow of immigrants will be a start. The money our country wastes on the EU is criminal and put into our own economy will help improve the NHS,Policing,Security etc making the UK a safer place to live in. The salaries that MEP's get for doing ery little is obscene too. Its akin to the FA. Time to stop and time to get the UK being the great country its was and still can be if we Exit now before its too late.

shaun57 chislehurst 08 Jun 16 10.59am
I have 5 Grandchildren, and it's for them that I am voting OUT .

shaun57

chislehurst 08 Jun 16 10.59am

I have 5 Grandchildren, and it's for them that I am voting OUT .

Kermit8 Hevon 08 Jun 16 11.04am
Originally posted by bubble wrap So in your mind staying in the EU will keep future generations safer than leaving?. Its the kind of argument that those trying to encourage people to stay come up with without backing it up. I can think of many reasons why leaving the EU will make us safer than actually staying. Just stopping the flow of immigrants will be a start. The money our country wastes on the EU is criminal and put into our own economy will help improve the NHS,Policing,Security etc making the UK a safer place to live in. The salaries that MEP's get for doing ery little is obscene too. Its akin to the FA. Time to stop and time to get the UK being the great country its was and still can be if we Exit now before its too late. I'm talking about proper conflict not terrorism. Look at the above vid in my previous post. Anyone who thinks we European humans have become so enlightened that we will never fight each other again Nato or no Nato is living in cloud-cuckoo land. My point being let's delay it for as long as possible, shall we? The EU helps force the peace. It is not a hindrance to it. Even Boris agrees on that one. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 08 Jun 16 11.04am

Originally posted by bubble wrap

I'm talking about proper conflict not terrorism. Look at the above vid in my previous post.

Anyone who thinks we European humans have become so enlightened that we will never fight each other again Nato or no Nato is living in cloud-cuckoo land.

My point being let's delay it for as long as possible, shall we? The EU helps force the peace. It is not a hindrance to it. Even Boris agrees on that one.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

Kermit8 Hevon 08 Jun 16 11.08am
Originally posted by shaun57 I have 5 Grandchildren, and it's for them that I am voting OUT . Wouldn't it be fair to ask the older ones what they think before deciding for them? Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 08 Jun 16 11.08am

Originally posted by shaun57

I have 5 Grandchildren, and it's for them that I am voting OUT .

Wouldn't it be fair to ask the older ones what they think before deciding for them?

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

Lyons550 Shirley 08 Jun 16 11.17am
Originally posted by Kermit8 I still don't quite get why the Brexiteers mind fellow Europeans coming here. We love going to their places for short or long term stays and we have loads of things in common. And what right do those same Brexiteers have to put hurdles in the way of tens of millions of young British people over the next few decades who could have the opportunity, should they so wish, to live and work abroad within the EU? I'm not so sure this is a gross distortion of the truth...most Brexiteers I know and have heard on the media are more than happy for people to come over...its just that they (the Brexiteers) want a way of controlling the numbers. The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 08 Jun 16 11.17am

Originally posted by Kermit8

I still don't quite get why the Brexiteers mind fellow Europeans coming here. We love going to their places for short or long term stays and we have loads of things in common.

I'm not so sure this is a gross distortion of the truth...most Brexiteers I know and have heard on the media are more than happy for people to come over...its just that they (the Brexiteers) want a way of controlling the numbers.

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550 Shirley 08 Jun 16 11.20am
Originally posted by Kermit8 EU breaks up and years down the line conflict over land, water, sea borders, political parties, ideologies, etc, - the usual stuff - and idiots start fighting. Watch this mesmerising 3min vid and tell me what you think will probably happen conflict-wise in the future if we end up going our separate ways? [Link] History: best to learn from it. Why would the UK leaving the EU lead to it breaking up? The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 08 Jun 16 11.20am

Originally posted by Kermit8

EU breaks up and years down the line conflict over land, water, sea borders, political parties, ideologies, etc, - the usual stuff - and idiots start fighting.

Watch this mesmerising 3min vid and tell me what you think will probably happen conflict-wise in the future if we end up going our separate ways?

[Link]

History: best to learn from it.

Why would the UK leaving the EU lead to it breaking up?

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

johnfirewall 08 Jun 16 11.27am
Originally posted by Kermit8 EU breaks up and years down the line conflict over land, water, sea borders, political parties, ideologies, etc, - the usual stuff - and idiots start fighting. Watch this mesmerising 3min vid and tell me what you think will probably happen conflict-wise in the future if we end up going our separate ways? [Link] History: best to learn from it. You must mean with the Scots or Welsh as I'm not sure we will have disputes with anyone else over our territory. The EU can't stop facism or right wing parties in eastern Europe. I'm sorry but I'm having to call you out on this as I can only conclude you find the notion of the EU desirable as a union in the socialist sense or are one of those who are blindly pro (or anti-anti) migration as your reasons seem so vague. Edited by johnfirewall (08 Jun 2016 11.34am)

johnfirewall

08 Jun 16 11.27am

Originally posted by Kermit8

EU breaks up and years down the line conflict over land, water, sea borders, political parties, ideologies, etc, - the usual stuff - and idiots start fighting.

Watch this mesmerising 3min vid and tell me what you think will probably happen conflict-wise in the future if we end up going our separate ways?

[Link]

History: best to learn from it.

You must mean with the Scots or Welsh as I'm not sure we will have disputes with anyone else over our territory.

The EU can't stop facism or right wing parties in eastern Europe.

I'm sorry but I'm having to call you out on this as I can only conclude you find the notion of the EU desirable as a union in the socialist sense or are one of those who are blindly pro (or anti-anti) migration as your reasons seem so vague.

Edited by johnfirewall (08 Jun 2016 11.34am)

Hoof Hearted 08 Jun 16 11.29am
Originally posted by Kermit8 I still don't quite get why the Brexiteers mind fellow Europeans coming here. We love going to their places for short or long term stays and we have loads of things in common. And what right do those same Brexiteers have to put hurdles in the way of tens of millions of young British people over the next few decades who could have the opportunity, should they so wish, to live and work abroad within the EU? Why should Europeans be allowed to come here en-masse without any skills, not being able to speak english, no job to go to and no money for rent? Our commonwealth friends from all over the globe are prohibited from being allowed to settle here even when they more than match the criteria I have outlined above. Leaving the EU allows us to determine who we want to live and work here ourselves. These may include the brightest and best EU citizens but hopefully not the Romanian Gypsy pickpocket gangs, or Lithuanian sex workers with their pimps. Nobody is putting a hurdle in the way of anyone.

Hoof Hearted 08 Jun 16 11.29am

Originally posted by Kermit8

I still don't quite get why the Brexiteers mind fellow Europeans coming here. We love going to their places for short or long term stays and we have loads of things in common.

Why should Europeans be allowed to come here en-masse without any skills, not being able to speak english, no job to go to and no money for rent?

Our commonwealth friends from all over the globe are prohibited from being allowed to settle here even when they more than match the criteria I have outlined above.

Leaving the EU allows us to determine who we want to live and work here ourselves. These may include the brightest and best EU citizens but hopefully not the Romanian Gypsy pickpocket gangs, or Lithuanian sex workers with their pimps.

Nobody is putting a hurdle in the way of anyone.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 08 Jun 16 11.34am
Originally posted by npn Agree with most of your post, but the bold bit is the part that I think is a bit "pie-in-the-sky". Cameron went to Europe to renegotiate, and was taken roughly from behind. Once the referendum result is in, if it's a "remain" then he has no bargaining chips at all. He keeps mentioning this idea of "staying in a reformed EU", either blind to the fact or willfully ignoring it. The EU will never reform. I can only liken this to the state of the 'red tory lite' labour party when it hemmorhaged many left thinking members to minor parties such as TUSC et al because they felt they had been betrayed. However many left thinking party members remained in order to change from within. and many who left have returned (as well as many more) This has now happened as we can see with the elevation of Corbyn to party leader. Now whether this can be extrapolated to apply to working in the EU is difficult to judge. Interesting that after reading a german newspaper, I found that many europeans thought that the eu had conceded too much to cameron regarding reduction of welfare payments and tax credits.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 08 Jun 16 11.34am

Originally posted by npn

Agree with most of your post, but the bold bit is the part that I think is a bit "pie-in-the-sky". Cameron went to Europe to renegotiate, and was taken roughly from behind. Once the referendum result is in, if it's a "remain" then he has no bargaining chips at all. He keeps mentioning this idea of "staying in a reformed EU", either blind to the fact or willfully ignoring it.

The EU will never reform.

I can only liken this to the state of the 'red tory lite' labour party when it hemmorhaged many left thinking members to minor parties such as TUSC et al because they felt they had been betrayed. However many left thinking party members remained in order to change from within. and many who left have returned (as well as many more) This has now happened as we can see with the elevation of Corbyn to party leader.
Now whether this can be extrapolated to apply to working in the EU is difficult to judge.

Interesting that after reading a german newspaper, I found that many europeans thought that the eu had conceded too much to cameron regarding reduction of welfare payments and tax credits.

Kermit8 Hevon 08 Jun 16 11.36am
Originally posted by Lyons550 Why would the UK leaving the EU lead to it breaking up? Imagine Ker-plunk with Germany, France and the UK being the biggest marbles in the container. If one of them goes the structure weakens. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]

Kermit8

Hevon 08 Jun 16 11.36am

Originally posted by Lyons550

Why would the UK leaving the EU lead to it breaking up?

Imagine Ker-plunk with Germany, France and the UK being the biggest marbles in the container. If one of them goes the structure weakens.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 08 Jun 16 11.37am
Originally posted by Lyons550 Not saying you're wrong Nick...but where did you get this stat from? [Link] This shows 13% of U.K laws came from the eu between the nineties and 2014. However including regulations, such as emmisions etc affected circa 60% of UK legislation.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 08 Jun 16 11.37am

Originally posted by Lyons550

Not saying you're wrong Nick...but where did you get this stat from?

[Link]

This shows 13% of U.K laws came from the eu between the nineties and 2014.
However including regulations, such as emmisions etc affected circa 60% of UK legislation.

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