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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
"Whitewashing" in the entertainment industry has a long and shameful history. Think back to who played the Arabs in "Lawrence of Arabia"; it was Omar Sharif...yes...and Alec Guinness and Anthony Quinn - with Jose Ferrer as a Turk). This year, the lead Asian character from the book of "Ghost in the Shell" was played by Scarlett Johansson, which follows last year's nonsense with Emma Stone playing a half-Asian Hawaiian. Hollywood has been replacing characters - written as people of colour (irony alert) - with white actors since day one. Seeing as Hollywood has already established that the colour of a written character's skin is irrelevant to the movie portrayal of that character, it makes the whole debate about Bond moot. Somewhat unfairly in this specific case: the lead character in Ghost in the Shell isn't Asian, she's a cyborg, and she's not even in her original body (she's shifted form several times). She was originally Japanese, but exists in a trans-human society. Motoko aka the major loses her original body in childhood with full body prosthetic, with a cybernetic brain - hence the title - Ghost in the Shell. Its literally about someone divorced from their physical self. Sadly, it seems people made a lot of noise without being too familiar with the source, because as it turns out for all the films failings, Scarlett Johansson really nails the appearance from some of the anime. Even the original author thinks she's a great adaptation. Its the exception maybe that proves the rule, but actually Scarlett Johansson is a very good
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
So you're ok with reinventing the race/colour of a written character as long as it makes more money? So much for artistic integrity. FYI, have you noticed the increase in Hollywood movies of China as a locale and/or Chinese characters? It's not an accident. [Link] Based on your stated principle, that money trumps art, I'm sure you're looking forward to Jet Li playing James Bond. It has nothing to do with me. I'm not in the movie business. However, profit is the driving force behind all decisions made regarding casting. Even art for art sake still needs to eat. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (18 Jul 2017 5.05pm)
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Originally posted by Part Time James
I never thought this was my stance but I'd be as happy seeing Will Smith play James Bond as I would seeing Rowan Atkinson play Martin Luther King. Both fantastic actors that would be incredibly entertaining. What about Ron Atkinson?
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Originally posted by Part Time James
I've actually lost track of which side of the argument you are on. The above reads like you are against actors portraying characters of a different traditional ethnicity. I thought earlier you were for it. 1950s Bond has to be a white man because it's not credible that he'd be anything else; while a 21st century Bond can be drawn from a much more varied genetic pot. Many other characters are similarly interchangeable. I'm fine with this. But Hollywood gets rightly criticised for replacing non-white characters with white actors just coz. The money argument doesn't always work either, because big budget movies like "Gods of Egypt" cast Gerrard Butler and some unknown Australian as it's main protagonists and Ridley Scott's "Exodus" had a cast of actors about as Egyptian as that of "Carry on Cleo". I am not fine with this. As Hrolf showed with his contradiction over money vs. white Bond, there's no simple black and white here (pun intended).
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It has nothing to do with me. I'm not in the movie business. However, profit is the driving force behind all decisions made regarding casting. Even art for art sake still needs to eat. Great. So a non-white Bond is fine by you if it makes the Broccolis more money?
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
1950s Bond has to be a white man because it's not credible that he'd be anything else; while a 21st century Bond can be drawn from a much more varied genetic pot. Many other characters are similarly interchangeable. I'm fine with this. But Hollywood gets rightly criticised for replacing non-white characters with white actors just coz. The money argument doesn't always work either, because big budget movies like "Gods of Egypt" cast Gerrard Butler and some unknown Australian as it's main protagonists and Ridley Scott's "Exodus" had a cast of actors about as Egyptian as that of "Carry on Cleo". I am not fine with this. As Hrolf showed with his contradiction over money vs. white Bond, there's no simple black and white here (pun intended). White actors usually play foreign characters because they are box office draws where as a whole cast of unknown Egyptians, for example, will sink like a stone. I don't think this concept is dificult to grasp.
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Originally posted by johnno42000
I don't agree with the new Doctor IF she has just got the job because she is a woman. To me that is just as sexist as a man getting the job just because he is a man. However if she got it as she was the best candidate, good on her. Missy is possibly my favourite character and I hope she comes back. As a lifelong fan (haven't missed an episode since I started watching in about 1965), I hated Missy with a passion. Not sure about Jodie Whittaker - but glad it wasn't Kris Marshall who was favourite. The problem in the last few years has been the awful stories (especially Moffatt and his story arcs). Bring back decent stories and it doesn't really matter who the Doctor is. For the record, my favourite Doctors have been Pertwee, Troughton and Tennant.
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
Great. So a non-white Bond is fine by you if it makes the Broccolis more money? I want Bond to be white because I'm white and his character has always been white. If he ever becomes Black it will be because someone thinks it will make more money, not to further the success of the Black 'race'. What ever colour he is, I will have more important things to worry about.
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Bond is culturally specific as well. He had a Scottish father and a Swiss mother. How does having Scottish or Swiss parents equate to being white? Oh, and "white" doesn't need a capital letter...
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
The difference between you and me is that I want the representation of Bond to be done well; you want white first, quality second. There's a word for that. Well said...
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I want Bond to be white because I'm white and his character has always been white. If he ever becomes Black it will be because someone thinks it will make more money, not to further the success of the Black 'race'. What ever colour he is, I will have more important things to worry about. I'm curious as to what you mean. You feel that you identify with him far more because he's white? Is how you feel about race that pronounced? I don't ever recall seeing a Brit play a role and feel a disconnect based on skin colour. Maybe you mean something else and it's just awkwardly worded.
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Originally posted by wordup
I'm curious as to what you mean. You feel that you identify with him far more because he's white? Is how you feel about race that pronounced? I don't ever recall seeing a Brit play a role and feel a disconnect based on skin colour. Maybe you mean something else and it's just awkwardly worded.
You are familiar with human nature? Maybe you are superior in your own mind and think you don't you suffer from it?
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
White actors usually play foreign characters because they are box office draws where as a whole cast of unknown Egyptians, for example, will sink like a stone. I don't think this concept is dificult to grasp. This is true...currently. I was extrapolating to the point, inevitably, when the Asian box office dominates and so Hollywood will panders more heavily to that market (as it has already started doing). You seem to think your white privilege is going to last forever, when it most definitely is not. Also, both Egypt movies sank like stones anyway, white stars be damned. The studios would've lost less money - and gained more credibility - casting middle eastern actors. Edited by Ray in Houston (18 Jul 2017 6.07pm)
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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Originally posted by Red Al
How does having Scottish or Swiss parents equate to being white? Oh, and "white" doesn't need a capital letter... No, obviously he is far more likely to be Black with the percentage of Black people in Scotland and Switzerland 40 or so years ago. Spare me please. And I say it does, because Black and White is not the actual colour of the person but a simplified and accepted way to describe a certain group.
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
You are familiar with human nature? Maybe you are superior in your own mind and think you don't you suffer from it? I'm not sure that asking a question about your comment can be considered a 'meltdown'. I was genuinely curious if it was that important to you. I didn't say it's superior to think otherwise either but if it angers you that I can feel an affinity to characters of other races, that's certainly not my issue.
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I want Bond to be white because I'm white and his character has always been white. If he ever becomes Black it will be because someone thinks it will make more money, not to further the success of the Black 'race'. What ever colour he is, I will have more important things to worry about.
Edited by Ray in Houston (18 Jul 2017 6.13pm)
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
This is true...currently. I was extrapolating to the point, inevitably, when the Asian box office dominates and so Hollywood will panders more heavily to that market (as it has already started doing). You seem to think your white privilege is going to last forever, when it most definitely is not. Also, both Egypt movies sank like stones anyway, white stars be damned. The studios would've lost less money - and gained more credibility - casting middle eastern actors. Edited by Ray in Houston (18 Jul 2017 6.07pm) My white privilege? I haven't noticed any. That all sounds a bit like bigotry to me.
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
Edited by Ray in Houston (18 Jul 2017 6.13pm) No, only you said that in the highlighted bit. I said I preferred Bond to be White because I'm White.
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Originally posted by wordup
I'm not sure that asking a question about your comment can be considered a 'meltdown'. I was genuinely curious if it was that important to you. I didn't say it's superior to think otherwise either but if it angers you that I can feel an affinity to characters of other races, that's certainly not my issue. Important? Movies about a ridiculous spy? Er no. It's just fun. Why do you give a s***? Edited by wordup (18 Jul 2017 6.15pm) Important? Movies about a ridiculous spy? Er no. It's just fun. Why do you give a s***?
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