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August 22 2019 8.52pm

animal rights?

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 23 Aug 16 9.59pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

They would have rarely eaten meat, given the productive requirement of hunting, as opposed to gathering - Most primitive tribes tend to consume small ratios of meat to vegetables/fruit.

Good grief, it must been boring at your end today.

A lot of what you say is reasonable but the fact is that we are here today in this society where meat is plentiful and for many, desirable.
Like rape, to use your example, eating meat is caused a biological urge but the difference is that rape is illegal. Our society could not function as it does if that were not the case. Meat eating, on the other hand is legal and will continue to be so, no doubt, until technology allows us to fabricate a substitute that is acceptable to the consumer and ethical in it's manner of creation.
I'm not sure that we can know the exact diet of our ancestors as you suggest but tribes living now would surely eat more meat if it were readily available. To suggest that eating more meat is undesirable is a little premature. We won't know the full effects of our modern day habits for many years into the future. The consumption of meat and bowel cancer relationship probably has more to do with the preparation of cured meats rather than with the meat itself however, since science changes it's mind every decade about relationships, I would reserve judgment.

 

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View blackpalacefan's Profile blackpalacefan Flag 24 Aug 16 12.11am Send a Private Message to blackpalacefan Add blackpalacefan as a friend

I'm desensitised to eating the narrow range of animal products I grew up eating, but never try anything new. If I had to kill animals myself I'd suddenly be stuffing my face with tofu and lentils. When looked at in that light it's not really a better aspect of who I am.

 

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View sitdownstandup's Profile sitdownstandup Flag 24 Aug 16 12.35am Send a Private Message to sitdownstandup Add sitdownstandup as a friend

Originally posted by selhurst jesus

This is a topic that I'm pretty interested in, so sorry if I bore on for a second...

Animals have, and have had, tremendous rights in history. Egyptians worshipped cats whilst enslaving huge populations of humans, Hindus worship cows whilst having a caste system. What this shows, to me, is there is no 'natural' hierarchy really, its normally just the perspective we're born with that we take on. Interestingly, very few societies think it appropriate to show kids the killing of animals, particularly in developed countries, and this is a very human thing. Again, does this challenge the idea that its biologically wired in to us to kill other animals? Possibly...

What we do know is that humans don't need meat. The correct levels of protein, zinc, iron, vitamin d, vitamin b12, are available outside meat and dairy. We now eat a s*** load more meat than we ever have, and this is only on the rise as the industrial development of the world increases. People go on about hunter gatherer days, well take a hunter gatherer down Croydon high street and he would probably see more meat than he'd eat in his entire life. Animals are actually b******s to catch if you haven't got a fence and a bolt gun.

And so the real question is, have we got it right now? How do we treat animals, and what effect does it have on us? Well I'd say we're wrong in every way. We eat twice as much meat in this country as we did 50 years ago, and the health impact is there for all to see. Obesity's through the roof, people are getting heart disease in their 40s.

Meanwhile, the environment's going to f*** and animal agriculture's the main cause. It contirbutes more CO2 than all transport combined, then you factor in water usage, nitrous oxide and methane emissions, deforestation, decoralisation and some reckon is as much as half the reason climate change is happening.

For me whats the most f***ed up is the amount of food we give to domesticated animals. About 40% of the grain in the world is given to animals. Meanwhile, half a billion people go to sleep hungry at night. We have countries running outa water yet we produce enough water for billions of domesticated cows, chickens etc etc. Like I say, that's f***ed up whichever way you look at it.


A lot of people think that those who stop eating meat and show concern for animals don't give a f*** about people and their welfare but when you look at the evidence it could be said that it's actually the people that are consuming meat that are the ones who are causing the greater problems for not only animals but people too.

And obviously the animals are getting a worse and worse deal. The demand for meat and dairy is leading to a need for greater supply, so the animals are given shorter lives, higher body protein levels, less and less room to grow, and less freedoms. At the minute, the rights of the average chicken include a tiny bit of sunlight, and that's about it. People don't really know how s*** farm conditions are unfortunately, partly cause most wouldnt wanna know, partly because if they did there would be a huge backlash imo. But there has been some great research done by animal rights charities on the matter.

One last point, to the fella who said about overpopulaton of humans. For me, it aint about trimming down, the whole universe involves expansion and contraction, but what keeps growing is what can keep itself stable, and not blow itself up.

We have enough land to grow enough food for a lot more people than we have at the moment, and enough water etc etc. But we're being f***ing stupid by creating societies where some people get it all and others get f*** all, and instead of eating food which is easy quick and cheap to grow, were dinin out on the hardest f***ing food of all to produce, meat.

A great point... animals are getting fed, housed, cleaned and getting, I would guess, a certain amount of healthcare on farms while many people struggle to get access to any of these.
Also, how many years would it take to grow certain amount of cows before you can slaughter them? Obviously they are forced to breed and then given chemicals to grow at unnatural rates - same as all other animals. How many edible grains/plants could be grown in that same amount of time? What about the amount of time, effort and resources used to raise the cows before slaughter compared to doing the same using plants/grains?

The more ethically the animal is raised before slaughter the more expensive the meat would cost so most people are buying cheap meat and how much would the price of meat have to go up to to ensure that all animals are treated humanely before they die?
What concerns would there be regarding the growing of plants/grains in comparison?


I'm not really that fussed about preaching a particular agenda here, people are smart enough to make their own minds up, I just wanted to give a different side of the argument you dont normally get because like i say this is a topic close to my heart. Knowledge is power as they say and I think we should all be clued up on what effect our life has on the world around us, and on where what we get is coming from.

A great post...

 


I never use a napkin on my lap at a restaurant... because I believe in myself.

Hannibal Burress

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View sitdownstandup's Profile sitdownstandup Flag 24 Aug 16 12.44am Send a Private Message to sitdownstandup Add sitdownstandup as a friend

Originally posted by sniffer dagenham

If you take offence by what you're about to read then tuff $hit. You need to man up a bit.

Many love eating it and many dont. I've not given up but eat far less meat than I did 12 months ago. Still love a bacon sandwich and a good roast dinner. I'll never been a veggie but do love the food I now cook.

Farmers rear animals for a reason. Because there are millions of people who still eat it!!

Don't care for all the arguments of good or bad so why don't you just simply agree to disagree about it.

Is there really a health issue with eating meat? Don't care we have been eating it for millions of years and we just carry on.

As for the first question is it not about time you started to think about our fellow human beings more than just animals? Especially the elderly. Those who are old and frail cant get around as easy as us. The ones who you hear about on the news.Yes the 87 year old who died and didn't discover the body for 10 weeks. Those are the ones we should be thinking about too. Love my pets and would be lost without them. But there is more to this planet than thinking about eating plants than eating animals.

Not an offensive post dagenham, just glad to get another perspective on the matter...But as for the point you raised about caring for our fellow human beings I agree with you but in a society where we turn a blind eye to the suffering of millions of animals every day the mentality that allows this to occur must have some correlation to people turning a blind eye to the plight of the elderly and all the other problems in society that we see around us. I would like to think that if we lived in a more compassionate society where we refuse to allow the daily killing of millions of animals then we would treat one another with greater kindness, respect and compassion too.


Edited by sitdownstandup (24 Aug 2016 11.50am)

 


I never use a napkin on my lap at a restaurant... because I believe in myself.

Hannibal Burress

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 24 Aug 16 9.41am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Good grief, it must been boring at your end today.

Four and a half hours of meetings I should not be in kind of boring.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 24 Aug 16 9.46am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Good grief, it must been boring at your end today.

A lot of what you say is reasonable but the fact is that we are here today in this society where meat is plentiful and for many, desirable.
Like rape, to use your example, eating meat is caused a biological urge but the difference is that rape is illegal. Our society could not function as it does if that were not the case. Meat eating, on the other hand is legal and will continue to be so, no doubt, until technology allows us to fabricate a substitute that is acceptable to the consumer and ethical in it's manner of creation.
I'm not sure that we can know the exact diet of our ancestors as you suggest but tribes living now would surely eat more meat if it were readily available. To suggest that eating more meat is undesirable is a little premature. We won't know the full effects of our modern day habits for many years into the future. The consumption of meat and bowel cancer relationship probably has more to do with the preparation of cured meats rather than with the meat itself however, since science changes it's mind every decade about relationships, I would reserve judgment.

I don't think its undesirable. Just that its something we do, more out of pleasure, convenience etc that's not necessarily good for us. A bit like smoking and drinking, but without the 'warnings' of the effects. We don't really make an informed decision. Certainly I wouldn't stop eating bacon because it increased rates of bowel and stomach cancer (especially as I smoke).

But like sugar, the amount of meat people eat is unlikely to be good for them, and we have whole industries that profit greatly. The Sugar and Meat industries are the tobacco companies of our age.

Of course I still smoke...

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 24 Aug 16 11.14am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I don't think its undesirable. Just that its something we do, more out of pleasure, convenience etc that's not necessarily good for us. A bit like smoking and drinking, but without the 'warnings' of the effects. We don't really make an informed decision. Certainly I wouldn't stop eating bacon because it increased rates of bowel and stomach cancer (especially as I smoke).

But like sugar, the amount of meat people eat is unlikely to be good for them, and we have whole industries that profit greatly. The Sugar and Meat industries are the tobacco companies of our age.

Of course I still smoke...

I knew it.

This is just your way of spreading the guilt.

The thing is that most food stuffs are probably harmless in their natural form but what we do in the processing is what makes them harmful.
Sugar is a good example. Until we started processing sugar, people had good teeth and I doubt if many had diabetes. Meat in itself is probably harmless. Currently, there is no relationship found between eating poultry and premature death even though it often contains high levels of fat. Cured meats seem to be the problem according to recent findings. The meat industry will continue to sell such products until they are stopped by law or incentivised not to. I would not hold my breath for that.
Drugs like nicotine are clearly a problem since they appear to have no benefits other than a pleasure sensation and are addictive and harmful to health. Sadly, the booze and cigarette trade make the government money and could not be effectively banned anyway. Only education and willpower can help there.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 24 Aug 16 11.51am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I knew it.

This is just your way of spreading the guilt.

The thing is that most food stuffs are probably harmless in their natural form but what we do in the processing is what makes them harmful.
Sugar is a good example. Until we started processing sugar, people had good teeth and I doubt if many had diabetes. Meat in itself is probably harmless. Currently, there is no relationship found between eating poultry and premature death even though it often contains high levels of fat. Cured meats seem to be the problem according to recent findings. The meat industry will continue to sell such products until they are stopped by law or incentivised not to. I would not hold my breath for that.
Drugs like nicotine are clearly a problem since they appear to have no benefits other than a pleasure sensation and are addictive and harmful to health. Sadly, the booze and cigarette trade make the government money and could not be effectively banned anyway. Only education and willpower can help there.

True that. I personally feel that people should have the right to make decisions for themselves, where ever possible and that sufficient education and knowledge is important. I smoke, but I know its going to probably f**k me, but f**k it, we all die one way or another.

Sugar is a f**king beast. Few people seem to know that its actually a central nervous stimulant, and an incredibly addictive drug (that's on top of its role in diabeties and other long term health problems).

Booze and cigs, you pay your money, and you take your choices. Like drugs, which they and sugar are, its your choice, and they're your consequences and the information is pretty clear to people. Its immoral, definitely, but its fun and the harm is relatively restricted to the individual when used reasonably.

Meat, especially processed meat and additive meat, gets a massive pass. White meat in general doesn't seem to be a problem. But red meat is (the human body really struggles to break down red meat).

Of course, its still immoral to eat meat, philosophically speaking, its not really defendable. Of course its not a big issue either. Certainly I believe that meat produced for market should be raised in reasonable conditions and slaughtered in a manner that's as humane as possible.

But I'm pretty sure that's not the case for the contents of that Greggs legally defined Steak bake. This is the stuff that's going to kill us, not the meat per se, but the s**ty meat products.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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View Bubbs's Profile Bubbs Flag Edinburgh 25 Aug 16 3.41am Send a Private Message to Bubbs Add Bubbs as a friend

Haven't eaten an animal for 26 years now. Just woke up one day, looked at my cat, and something in my head just clicked and thought, 'What the f**k am I doing?'. Was as simple as that. Never craved it.

I don't know what makes one person more or less empathetic when it comes to other species? I'm kind of at a place where I think 'well, who am I to say it's right or wrong for someone else?', despite every cell in my body screaming that it just isn't right. It's a tough one to debate and tends to go round in circles when you do.

Of course I wish there was no such thing as the meat industry and animal slaughter, but I also wish Palace would win every fecking cup going - neither are going to happen, so to avoid mental torture I've just learnt to just live by my conscience and accept others have a different outlook.

It does make me laugh though - well not laugh - when devout religious folk use their religions as an excuse to commit the most heinous acts on another living being that feels pain, fear and love just like the rest of us. Just happens to exist in a different type of vessel that's all. How very loving/God conscious is that??? Yes I'm looking at you Jews and Muslims....funnily enough the first to cry persecution. Funny world ain't it.

 


'Better stop dreaming of the quiet life 'cos it's the one we'll never know'

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View sitdownstandup's Profile sitdownstandup Flag 25 Aug 16 12.45pm Send a Private Message to sitdownstandup Add sitdownstandup as a friend

Originally posted by Bubbs

Haven't eaten an animal for 26 years now. Just woke up one day, looked at my cat, and something in my head just clicked and thought, 'What the f**k am I doing?'. Was as simple as that. Never craved it.

I don't know what makes one person more or less empathetic when it comes to other species? I'm kind of at a place where I think 'well, who am I to say it's right or wrong for someone else?', despite every cell in my body screaming that it just isn't right. It's a tough one to debate and tends to go round in circles when you do.

Of course I wish there was no such thing as the meat industry and animal slaughter, but I also wish Palace would win every fecking cup going - neither are going to happen, so to avoid mental torture I've just learnt to just live by my conscience and accept others have a different outlook.

It does make me laugh though - well not laugh - when devout religious folk use their religions as an excuse to commit the most heinous acts on another living being that feels pain, fear and love just like the rest of us. Just happens to exist in a different type of vessel that's all. How very loving/God conscious is that??? Yes I'm looking at you Jews and Muslims....funnily enough the first to cry persecution. Funny world ain't it.

Agree with your post... as for religious folk, it's strange because many are hoping for a peaceful world but think that animals will still be slaughtered by the millions in it. Some religious people are so closed minded it can be frustrating discussing the issue with them.... in spite of the environmental effects (even friends of the earth are running a meat free month now) and most environmentalists being ether vegetarian, vegan or eating very little meat a lot of religious people think that it's fine to eat animals (but by whose interpretation??) and will carry on eating them regardless of the consequences for animals, human health or the environment... it would make sense to include animals in any attempts to create a fairer and more peaceful world whether you are a follower of a particular religion or not.

 


I never use a napkin on my lap at a restaurant... because I believe in myself.

Hannibal Burress

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View sitdownstandup's Profile sitdownstandup Flag 25 Aug 16 12.49pm Send a Private Message to sitdownstandup Add sitdownstandup as a friend

Originally posted by sitdownstandup

Agree with your post and especially each to their own philosophy although I do think it's important that people have an understanding of what does go into the process of how food gets on the plate and the effect on the environment... as for religious folk, it's strange because many are hoping for a peaceful world but think that animals will still be slaughtered by the millions in it. Some religious people are so closed minded it can be frustrating discussing the issue with them.... in spite of the environmental effects (even friends of the earth are running a meat free month now) and most environmentalists being ether vegetarian, vegan or eating very little meat a lot of religious people think that it's fine to eat animals (but by whose interpretation??) and will carry on eating them regardless of the consequences for animals, human health or the environment... it would make sense to include animals in any attempts to create a fairer and more peaceful world whether you are a follower of a particular religion or not.

 


I never use a napkin on my lap at a restaurant... because I believe in myself.

Hannibal Burress

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View dollardays's Profile dollardays Flag 08 Aug 19 1.15am Send a Private Message to dollardays Add dollardays as a friend

This Youtuber releases ultra bubbly upbeat videos of her and her dog - [Link]

But this is how she actually behaves in an unedited video that she accidentally uploaded [Link] Not quite so bubbly there I see. Tut tut.


Edited by dollardays (08 Aug 2019 1.16am)

 

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