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June 5 2020 1.39pm

Some Questions for our Leftie, Liberal friends (LOCKED)

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View Speronilover69 8=D~~'s Profile Speronilover69 8=D~~ Flag Horsham 11 Mar 20 10.58am Send a Private Message to Speronilover69 8=D~~ Add Speronilover69 8=D~~ as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

The case that you have made seems to imply that diversity is a necessity not that it is good.

There are still 1.3m people unemployed and presumably claiming benefits so couldn't a case be made for some or all of the long term unemployed filling some of the positions currently being taken by immigrant labour?

Some of the more skilled jobs like nursing are only filled by immigrants because the UK Nursing Council make it so difficult for British people to get into the industry.

You need a university degree plus funding for your training to get into nursing in this country whereas in the Philippines one needs to do well at school before going to nursing college so the entry standards are much lower

A case could be made for that. However, convincing British people to pick fruit in a field, for example, is easier said than done. It's long, grueling hours which British people would rather not have to do. The only way to get British people to do the jobs that a lot of immigrants are doing would be to pay them more - which would increase the price of our produce. The same could be said for pretty much any industry (removing immigration will increase the price of goods and services and be detrimental to our economy).

I find it funny how 'right-wingers' always claim to prioritize the economy above all else but will happily ignore the needs of the economy when it suits them

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 11 Mar 20 11.18am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

Some of the more skilled jobs like nursing are only filled by immigrants because the UK Nursing Council make it so difficult for British people to get into the industry.

You need a university degree plus funding for your training to get into nursing in this country whereas in the Philippines one needs to do well at school before going to nursing college so the entry standards are much lower

This is something I have direct, current and personal experience of. If anyone really wants to know how and why please PM me.

That the NMC (Nursing and Midwifery Council) have raised standards by making nursing a degree course is beyond doubt. That they have done so is, partly at least, to ease the pressures on doctors and prepare the NHS for it's future. That the move from bursary funding to student loans has reduced the numbers applying for the courses is true. Hence the £5000 per year grant announced by the Government in December which will probably be confirmed in today's budget. This should help encourage more to enter the profession, whose loans are very unlikely ever to be paid back in full anyway. Raising the status, and salaries, of graduate nurses is going to be the real answer though, in my own opinion.

The idea that it's easier in the Philippines is though very wrong. It's a 5 year course there, and not 3 as it is here, but the standards are not so high, hence the need for a 6 month adaptation if they join the NHS. The key sticking point though is money. Entry is easy. The nursing colleges are commercial enterprises and if you can pay their fees and meet the minimal entry requirements, then you are accepted. The fees though are very high for an average middle class Filipino family, who will often have to borrow heavily in the hope that their student will eventually repay them with enough extra for their older years. As the drop out rate is high you can imagine the consequences. If you are poor then you need a sponsor, often a family member who is themselves working abroad.

It's no wonder you don't see too many Filipino nurses in the UK in social situations, but only in hospitals. They are too busy working and then sending most of what they earn back home.

Even if every place on offer in the Universities for Nursing degrees was full (and there aren't so many vacancies now) we would still need to recruit overseas. If we doubled the number of our students I think we would still need to do so. How long though it would take us to double the number of training places, let alone for the NHS itself to cope with the extra demand to look after students on placements, are quite other questions.

So overseas recruitment of nurses is going to be necessary for the foreseeable future.

 

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View Midlands Eagle's Profile Midlands Eagle Flag 11 Mar 20 11.37am Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle


The idea that it's easier in the Philippines is though very wrong. It's a 5 year course there, and not 3 as it is here, but the standards are not so high, hence the need for a 6 month adaptation if they join the NHS.

I picked the Philippines at random partly because my wife works with several Filipino nurses but without checking I am sure that it's also easier to get into nursing in pakistan and India too.

One of the disadvantages of making the entry into nursing so academic is that you end up with the wrong sort of people in the profession as those with the aptitude for the job don't have the academic qualifications for entry whilst those that do aren't necessarily the most suitable.

On the subject of diversity in nursing though one of the positives is that there are a large number of Muslim nurses at my wife's hospital who are happy to work Christmas Day (at double time) so wifey can always get the day off

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 11 Mar 20 11.45am Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

A lot of the nursing work could be undertaken by part-time health care workers/ auxiliaries. These people could work flexible hours to suit family/ other commitments.
However, low skilled people will not be allowed over. People with nursing degrees are going to be in a protected category - like secondary teachers, and as the case is in the USA/ Australia etc. The UK is also the destination of choice for Irish nurses once again. Many do their training in Belfast - where they already get the bursary.

 


Red and Blue Army!

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View W12's Profile W12 Flag 11 Mar 20 11.53am Send a Private Message to W12 Add W12 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

This is something I have direct, current and personal experience of. If anyone really wants to know how and why please PM me.

That the NMC (Nursing and Midwifery Council) have raised standards by making nursing a degree course is beyond doubt. That they have done so is, partly at least, to ease the pressures on doctors and prepare the NHS for it's future. That the move from bursary funding to student loans has reduced the numbers applying for the courses is true. Hence the £5000 per year grant announced by the Government in December which will probably be confirmed in today's budget. This should help encourage more to enter the profession, whose loans are very unlikely ever to be paid back in full anyway. Raising the status, and salaries, of graduate nurses is going to be the real answer though, in my own opinion.

The idea that it's easier in the Philippines is though very wrong. It's a 5 year course there, and not 3 as it is here, but the standards are not so high, hence the need for a 6 month adaptation if they join the NHS. The key sticking point though is money. Entry is easy. The nursing colleges are commercial enterprises and if you can pay their fees and meet the minimal entry requirements, then you are accepted. The fees though are very high for an average middle class Filipino family, who will often have to borrow heavily in the hope that their student will eventually repay them with enough extra for their older years. As the drop out rate is high you can imagine the consequences. If you are poor then you need a sponsor, often a family member who is themselves working abroad.

It's no wonder you don't see too many Filipino nurses in the UK in social situations, but only in hospitals. They are too busy working and then sending most of what they earn back home.

Even if every place on offer in the Universities for Nursing degrees was full (and there aren't so many vacancies now) we would still need to recruit overseas. If we doubled the number of our students I think we would still need to do so. How long though it would take us to double the number of training places, let alone for the NHS itself to cope with the extra demand to look after students on placements, are quite other questions.

So overseas recruitment of nurses is going to be necessary for the foreseeable future.

So if the arguments for mass immigration are purely either economic or practical (and not moral) then where does this end, obviously immigrants age the same as indigenous people. At what point would we be able to stop immigration following the current ponzi model?

Also if the arguments are mainly economic this means that the average person coming into the country needs to be a net benefit to the economy which means they need to earn in the range of £40k, not be playing benefit system, not having large numbers of kids and not committing any crime. If so, how does this justify immigration from violent tribal societies from the 3rd world that are clearly living completely separately from the indigenous people? (It's natural and I don't blame them for this btw).

Apart from all this it's telling how WE & Co completely ignore the more fundamental societal issues like why diversity is a good idea or is anything more then less white indigenous people.


Edited by W12 (11 Mar 2020 11.54am)

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 11 Mar 20 2.52pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

I picked the Philippines at random partly because my wife works with several Filipino nurses but without checking I am sure that it's also easier to get into nursing in pakistan and India too.

One of the disadvantages of making the entry into nursing so academic is that you end up with the wrong sort of people in the profession as those with the aptitude for the job don't have the academic qualifications for entry whilst those that do aren't necessarily the most suitable.

On the subject of diversity in nursing though one of the positives is that there are a large number of Muslim nurses at my wife's hospital who are happy to work Christmas Day (at double time) so wifey can always get the day off

As I am sure your wife will confirm HCAs (Health Care Assistants) now take on much of the work that lower level nurses used to do and are often the backbone in any ward. They provide a vital service which is often much under appreciated. However recruiting HCAs is likely to get much more difficult as it seems to me that this job won't qualify in the proposed points based system. Maybe this will have to be one of the first exemptions.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 11 Mar 20 2.59pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by W12

So if the arguments for mass immigration are purely either economic or practical (and not moral) then where does this end, obviously immigrants age the same as indigenous people. At what point would we be able to stop immigration following the current ponzi model?

Also if the arguments are mainly economic this means that the average person coming into the country needs to be a net benefit to the economy which means they need to earn in the range of £40k, not be playing benefit system, not having large numbers of kids and not committing any crime. If so, how does this justify immigration from violent tribal societies from the 3rd world that are clearly living completely separately from the indigenous people? (It's natural and I don't blame them for this btw).

Apart from all this it's telling how WE & Co completely ignore the more fundamental societal issues like why diversity is a good idea or is anything more then less white indigenous people.


Edited by W12 (11 Mar 2020 11.54am)

If the NHS would fail unless you permit the recruitment of staff from overseas then no amount of concern about "societal issues" can justify not allowing it.

You tackle the societal issues separately, with total determination to overcome them but with a matching attitude that brooks no behaviour that deviates from our accepted norms.

Permitting needed immigration and ensuring we retain a homogeneous, well ordered, society are not mutually exclusive. It just requires effort.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 11 Mar 20 3.10pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

If the NHS would fail unless you permit the recruitment of staff from overseas then no amount of concern about "societal issues" can justify not allowing it.

You tackle the societal issues separately, with total determination to overcome them but with a matching attitude that brooks no behaviour that deviates from our accepted norms.

Permitting needed immigration and ensuring we retain a homogeneous, well ordered, society are not mutually exclusive. It just requires effort.

Here we go again with that old baloney.

What happens when the immigrants outnumber the original population? Whose morals and codes do we follow then?
It is just a matter of time and not a very long time either.

 

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View ex hibitionist's Profile ex hibitionist Flag Hastings 11 Mar 20 7.57pm Send a Private Message to ex hibitionist Add ex hibitionist as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

Bit of a random point, but I have been pondering, there are a only few black women/girls in my department, none of whom I think work in the same team, but who insist on all sitting together at lunch.

It's strange, as I do not know all of them well but a few I have regular dealings with and they are all lovely and sociable yet create quite a visible division with their eating habits, or when socialising/not working. Is there really such a cultural divide between them and the rest of the office and is this a microcosm of society as a whole?

Brings me back to Muhammed Ali's quote of 'Black birds like to fly with blackbirds, bluebirds fly with bludebirds etc.".

Edited by Nicholas91 (11 Mar 2020 9.51am)

there is a bit of birds of a feather undoubtedly, we are animals, sum up people as quickly as we can, judge on appearances, and fancying people has something to do with chemistry (essence or smell, that sort of thing) - if you say this you can be called a fascist - there are realistic lefty liberals and up arse ones in la la land, just like there are pragmatic conservatives and opinionated ideological ones. I've worked in betting shops where all the ethnicities keep together: greeks, Chinese,, west Indians, Asians etc I once pondered which consistently had the worst behaviour - it was a close thing between west indians and cockneys - Ladbrokes at Balham Station in the early 70s was severely lacking the sprit of ebony and ivory, and I've noticed the same hiving off at festivals and public events. But if you hang around with your own race race is not an issue - and there's familiarity of habit and culture, so ordinary things don't seem strange bcos they're unfamiliar, so the answer is much more likely cultural than something to do with the 'gene pool' as certain posters like to argue several times daily. Diversity? Variety is the spice of life. As for immigrants taking the share of the natives' work and wealth that's bullsh*t - true New Labour caved in to big business allowing cheap eastern European labour in, but it's the big boys at the top who are screwing us over, if there were no immigrants they'd still be screwing us and our vital services would be more undermanned (or womanned!) than they are already.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 11 Mar 20 8.32pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Here we go again with that old baloney.

What happens when the immigrants outnumber the original population? Whose morals and codes do we follow then?
It is just a matter of time and not a very long time either.

The old baloney is entirely yours.

Who do you define as "the original population"? Beaker people? Anglo Saxons? Celts? Saxons? Vikings? Or is the real criteria that they must have "white" skins and be notional Christians? Actually the "original population" all had dark skins!

There is not the slightest chance of immigrants outnumbering the "original" population. They all died out thousands of years ago.

So is your real criteria those who are born here and aren't Muslim? People have arrived for centuries with different cultures and taken time to adjust and assimilate. New arrivals have usually faced racist attitudes and isolationism but eventually these have dissipated. Look at the waves of West Indians and then the Indians from Africa.

We now face a particular challenge which necessitates a particularly thoughtful response. As there is no other realistic option it's not just the best answer. It's the only answer.

 

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 11 Mar 20 9.25pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

The old baloney is entirely yours.

Who do you define as "the original population"? Beaker people? Anglo Saxons? Celts? Saxons? Vikings? Or is the real criteria that they must have "white" skins and be notional Christians? Actually the "original population" all had dark skins!

There is not the slightest chance of immigrants outnumbering the "original" population. They all died out thousands of years ago.

So is your real criteria those who are born here and aren't Muslim? People have arrived for centuries with different cultures and taken time to adjust and assimilate. New arrivals have usually faced racist attitudes and isolationism but eventually these have dissipated. Look at the waves of West Indians and then the Indians from Africa.

We now face a particular challenge which necessitates a particularly thoughtful response. As there is no other realistic option it's not just the best answer. It's the only answer.

Truly embarrassing when people trot out this shyte.

We have every right to have a say that our country doesnít slowly become Middle Eastern/African in every way they want and will make it given the chance. Some zones arenít and wonít slowly become such areas, itís happening very quickly. That tells you what people really think when theyíre not spewing out hypocritical garbage you have. They all move, including you.

You lot talk as though this stuff has been decided and we must get in line with the agenda or be ignored.

Hypocrites. Everyone knows a new one , daily.

Edit: the new one is being told it isnít our country. Good luck going oversees and telling people that it isnít their country. Weíre a joke being steered by jokers. Sorry. Idiots.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (11 Mar 2020 9.37pm)

 


COYP

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 11 Mar 20 9.35pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

If the NHS would fail unless you permit the recruitment of staff from overseas then no amount of concern about "societal issues" can justify not allowing it.

You tackle the societal issues separately, with total determination to overcome them but with a matching attitude that brooks no behaviour that deviates from our accepted norms.

Permitting needed immigration and ensuring we retain a homogeneous, well ordered, society are not mutually exclusive. It just requires effort.

Well that would be fine, but not going to happen. Weíre here to be taken the P1ss out of and youíre leaving the door wide open. Truro is nice though.

 


COYP

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