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December 1 2022 2.13pm

Zaha CF or W

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View doombear's Profile doombear Flag Too far from Selhurst Park 16 Aug 22 3.27pm Send a Private Message to doombear Add doombear as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

I would expect Zaha to get goals if he played up top, and also place pressure on Eze and Olise to get more this season, as that seems the next phase of development for them both. If Zaha plays up top we will also have space for an extra attacking wide player or midfielder, who should also be expected to contribute.

Edited by TheBigToePunt (16 Aug 2022 2.03pm)


I take your points which I understand. The problem for me is that Zaha is already our top scorer (even when you exclude his penalties). Whilst a new attacking player out wide might score some goals, it's a tall order to expect him together with Zaha centrally to make up the gap left by the CFs (If you add Benteke to the mix last season and take into account that it was rare for more than one of the 3 CFs to be on the pitch at the same time you have 15 goals to find simply to match last year's tally and that's without accounting for the 8 that Gallagher scored.

 

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View grumpymort's Profile grumpymort Flag UK/Thailand 16 Aug 22 3.29pm Send a Private Message to grumpymort Add grumpymort as a friend

Originally posted by rollercoaster

For me, the dilemma is getting Wilf, EZe and Olise in the same team, keep the balance and get enough goals. Eze is really good at number 10, like yesterday but doesn't score enough, Wilf on his owm, up-top is too light-weight for games against all but the top teams. Optimally for Wilf, Eze and Olise, we need to play more 4-4-2, with Wilf and ANO up top but the two remaining midfielders need to be top-notch so we really need a better partner for Decoure.

Vieira is still singling Ayew out for praise at his press conferences so it seems we are unlikely to get our wish and see less of him in the team.


The issues with this is Wilf has no interest in creating chances for others we wants goals himself and as other have said he wastes way too much.

Olise wants to come inside all the time and being one footed is not good they need to work on that and teach him to play the other side also defend which it looks like the defensive side he has picked up some. (He's young has lots of room to develop)

Eze is playing almost as deep play maker how can you expect hi to score and the other thing other players have issues scoring because of service this guy is one who is to supply it now.

No to 4-4-2

We play better with 3 up top and they switch around and tuck in when defending.

This is what Ed does a lot of and people moan about him yet he is going a lot work rate wise when really we need him in the box with others providing service.

Wilf is very lazy now you can see he is set in his ways and is not a CF or striker last night showed this he had 4-5 very good chances taking only 1, he cant battle for the ball or hold it no effort to close people down.

 


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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 16 Aug 22 3.40pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by rollercoaster

For me, the dilemma is getting Wilf, EZe and Olise in the same team, keep the balance and get enough goals. Eze is really good at number 10, like yesterday but doesn't score enough, Wilf on his owm, up-top is too light-weight for games against all but the top teams. Optimally for Wilf, Eze and Olise, we need to play more 4-4-2, with Wilf and ANO up top but the two remaining midfielders need to be top-notch so we really need a better partner for Decoure.

Vieira is still singling Ayew out for praise at his press conferences so it seems we are unlikely to get our wish and see less of him in the team.

Simple from my perspective, I'd like to see us play the 4-3-3 with Olise on the right (RW) , I'd play Wilf up top on his own with a LW, or Wilf on the left with a CF, and play Eze ahead of Doucoure plus another.

Ideally, we'd get a partner for Doucoure in the middle and a good signing up top (Goncalo Ramos for me). There's the 4-3-3 with a good few back ups up top (Mal, Ayew, Semenyo, JPM, Edouard) and a few back ups in midfield: Hughes, Schlupp (sub only), JMac, Luka etc.

Just my two cents.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View TheBigToePunt's Profile TheBigToePunt Flag 16 Aug 22 4.46pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by doombear


I take your points which I understand. The problem for me is that Zaha is already our top scorer (even when you exclude his penalties). Whilst a new attacking player out wide might score some goals, it's a tall order to expect him together with Zaha centrally to make up the gap left by the CFs (If you add Benteke to the mix last season and take into account that it was rare for more than one of the 3 CFs to be on the pitch at the same time you have 15 goals to find simply to match last year's tally and that's without accounting for the 8 that Gallagher scored.

Good point well made, but as I understand it your sums presume (or hope!?) that Eduoard or Mateta will get 15-odd goals between them if one or other plays up front all year (or 7 or 8 each if they are rotated), and that Zaha will get roughly the same number of goals from the wing as he did last year, and finally, that he'd get no more than that if played up front. If all those things pan out then we are, as you say, missing some 15 goals in the front line, and a new winger would have to find them.

As I say, I'd expect Olise to find another six to eight goals this season, at least. He is developing all the time, and needs to have appropriate expectations placed on his shoulders as part of that. I'd also expect Wilf, if played up front, to get at least another two or three goals than if he played on the wing (accepting that his goals return is high for a winger). That leaves the new winger with four or five to find, which doesn't seem too much to hope for. I'd hope Eze matches Gallagher's goals tally.

Moreover, though the numbers can tell a story, they don't tell the whole story, and certainly can't tell us the future. Wilf, for his faults, is a potential menace to any defence in the world. Even top sides will keep an extra player back to offset his threat, or drop off a few yards to deny him the kind of space he took advantage of last night. That makes space for the likes of Eze and Olise, and discourages opponents from pressing us fully. The threat of Zaha alone, in comparison to Edouard or Mateta, could make a beneficial tactical difference to the shape of our games, reducing the time we spend fully under the cosh, and increasing our possession foothold in the match. It's hard to equate that to a number of goals or points lost or gained.

Another thing to consider is the effect of better quality individuals on their team mates. Once Eze slipped past Alexander-Arnold and Fabinho last night, Zaha saw the opportunity to run in behind far sooner, and timed the run far better, than I would expect Mateta or Edouard to. That made Eze's excellent pass possible. From there on in, Zaha did what nobody else we have could do. It was an example of a goal that just doesn't get scored with lesser quality players.

When at Reading, Olise regularly played defence-splitting passes just like Eze's, and though this is of course a higher league I think both these young creative talents have, in addition to their dribbling skills, the potential to deliver incisive forward passes if the forward is bright enough and on the move. Awareness and movement are signs of quality, and that really is my argument - get the best quality players in the side somehow, even if it means a different shape or style, and then we'll have a better chance.

 

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View fish mitten's Profile fish mitten Flag Chelmsford 16 Aug 22 4.55pm Send a Private Message to fish mitten Add fish mitten as a friend

For me he's not a lone striker. May be in the odd game where we will be under pressure for any period of time. He seems to score a lot of goals when he can cut inside and shoot and yesterday proved whilst he can score a goal on the break he's not an instinctive centre forward.

Think he could have played a 'Wright' like forward alongside Benteke as a 'Bright' but that would have meant sacrifices elsewhere.

Still prefer him on the wing, most of the time.

What it has shown is that Vieira doesn't place a lot of confidence in either Edouard or Mateta in that role either. As well as the obvious Gallagher hole in midfield we really could do with another striker. Perhaps we should give Plange a chance.

 

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View beak's Profile beak Flag croydon 16 Aug 22 5.28pm Send a Private Message to beak Add beak as a friend

We have spent good money on Mateta and Edouard,they are considered Centr Forwards,so leave Wilf on the wing and let the other two reveal whether they are good enough.

 

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View Rainforest's Profile Rainforest Flag London England 16 Aug 22 5.36pm Send a Private Message to Rainforest Add Rainforest as a friend

Originally posted by Lanzo-Ad

Has Wilf become a bet CF than a winger he is definately the best finisher and times his runs well, maybe if we buy Antoine Semenyo he is LW material, the bits i have seen on youtube he reminds me of Wilf

I think Zaha gets better scoring chances as a CF than as a winger That Eze's centre through ball to Zaha to chase and score was pretty rare.

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 16 Aug 22 5.39pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by Rainforest

I think Zaha gets better scoring chances as a CF than as a winger That Eze's centre through ball to Zaha to chase and score was pretty rare.

I think it worth asking the question however of whether you wanted it to be Wilf, JPM, Edouard or Ayew on the receiving end??

Easy for me to say now but I'm glad it was who it was.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View southnorwoodhill's Profile southnorwoodhill Flag 16 Aug 22 6.32pm Send a Private Message to southnorwoodhill Add southnorwoodhill as a friend

Originally posted by grumpymort


The issues with this is Wilf has no interest in creating chances for others we wants goals himself and as other have said he wastes way too much.

Olise wants to come inside all the time and being one footed is not good they need to work on that and teach him to play the other side also defend which it looks like the defensive side he has picked up some. (He's young has lots of room to develop)

Eze is playing almost as deep play maker how can you expect hi to score and the other thing other players have issues scoring because of service this guy is one who is to supply it now.

No to 4-4-2

We play better with 3 up top and they switch around and tuck in when defending.

This is what Ed does a lot of and people moan about him yet he is going a lot work rate wise when really we need him in the box with others providing service.

Wilf is very lazy now you can see he is set in his ways and is not a CF or striker last night showed this he had 4-5 very good chances taking only 1, he cant battle for the ball or hold it no effort to close people down.

I agree with the overall gist of this. Zaha's not a CF, he needs the space to work in, he'd soon throw a strop with a mean centre-half giving him the treatment. He also likes the glory and I've lost count of the amount of times he has had taken on the defender and tried to pop his shot away to beat the keeper at the near post, rather than the better option of a simple pass inside to a man in space. Ok, he'll get the occasional one fly in and everyone one will say Wilf's the greatest" but compared to the missed opportunities it's not a lot.
I would say in his defence yesterday's finish was top drawer though.

 

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View sydtheeagle's Profile sydtheeagle Flag England 16 Aug 22 7.26pm Send a Private Message to sydtheeagle Add sydtheeagle as a friend

Originally posted by southnorwoodhill

Zaha's not a CF, he needs the space to work in, he'd soon throw a strop with a mean centre-half giving him the treatment.

You do realise you've just described Thierry Henry to a tee before Wenger got his hands on him. He was a moody right winger capable of scoring a goal. Nothing more. Then he got turned into the best centre forward in PL history and no one saw that coming.

What Vieira's doing with Wilf isn't pulling something out of thin air; its history he saw first-hand and he sees an opportunity to repeat it. And I think he might be right to do so.

Edited by sydtheeagle (16 Aug 2022 7.26pm)

 


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View grumpymort's Profile grumpymort Flag UK/Thailand 16 Aug 22 7.27pm Send a Private Message to grumpymort Add grumpymort as a friend

Originally posted by southnorwoodhill

I agree with the overall gist of this. Zaha's not a CF, he needs the space to work in, he'd soon throw a strop with a mean centre-half giving him the treatment. He also likes the glory and I've lost count of the amount of times he has had taken on the defender and tried to pop his shot away to beat the keeper at the near post, rather than the better option of a simple pass inside to a man in space. Ok, he'll get the occasional one fly in and everyone one will say Wilf's the greatest" but compared to the missed opportunities it's not a lot.
I would say in his defence yesterday's finish was top drawer though.


Missed another 4

I wouldn't say it was top draw he was through and slowed up as he does which makes it more difficult.

 


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View sprites's Profile sprites Flag Auckland 16 Aug 22 10.13pm Send a Private Message to sprites Add sprites as a friend

Originally posted by southnorwoodhill

I agree with the overall gist of this. Zaha's not a CF, he needs the space to work in, he'd soon throw a strop with a mean centre-half giving him the treatment. He also likes the glory and I've lost count of the amount of times he has had taken on the defender and tried to pop his shot away to beat the keeper at the near post, rather than the better option of a simple pass inside to a man in space. Ok, he'll get the occasional one fly in and everyone one will say Wilf's the greatest" but compared to the missed opportunities it's not a lot.
I would say in his defence yesterday's finish was top drawer though.

Disagree with this. Wilf doesn't do much with space anymore. He's lost pace and looks hesitant to really run and people anymore. Where he's still world-class though is his ability in tight spaces, little turns, tricks to buy himself an inch of space then get a shot away.

I remember years ago Dougie saying Wilf could well be the 20 goal a season striker we've been looking for. Lots of time has passed since then...but I still think he could have been / could still be.

 

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