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Handbaaaaaaaaaaall!!!!

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 10 Oct 22 3.26pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by Willo

With respect, I do not share your view on this matter.
The word 'Fiddlesticks' comes readily to mind.

I would suggest there is far more evidence for my suggestion Willo than an argument against. The words 'demonstrably' comes to my mind!

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View Willo's Profile Willo Online Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 10 Oct 22 3.30pm Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

I would suggest there is far more evidence for my suggestion Willo than an argument against. The words 'demonstrably' comes to my mind!

Referees are not beyond reproach and do err from time to time but by-and-large perform with some aplomb under great pressure in games of great alacrity and intensity.

Edited by Willo (10 Oct 2022 3.33pm)

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 10 Oct 22 3.54pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by Willo

Incidents can vary of course, and there are so many factors to consider eg distance the ball has travelled, positioning of the hands, whether they were moved towards the ball and whether they were in an unnatural position etc etc so subjectivity can enter the equation.Not forgetting of course that the incidents happen at pace and the referee has to make an instant decision.


Edited by Willo (10 Oct 2022 3.09pm)

But VAR doesn’t happen at pace does it

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 10 Oct 22 3.55pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by Willo

With respect, I do not share your view on this matter.
The word 'Fiddlesticks' comes readily to mind.

We know, not unexpected from the poster who thought Clattenburg was above reproach

 

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View Willo's Profile Willo Online Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 10 Oct 22 3.57pm Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

But VAR doesn’t happen at pace does it

There is of course pressure to arrive at a decision which doesn't take an eternity but I can only repeat that subjectivity can enter the equation and there can be nuances between incidents.

 

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View Willo's Profile Willo Online Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 10 Oct 22 4.01pm Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

We know, not unexpected from the poster who thought Clattenburg was above reproach

With the greatest of respect, I don't wish to gallivant down this line of debate as in the past they have been the catalyst for those dastardly 'Willo Threads' which led to scurrilous allegations and numerous debates being de-railed by animus.


Edited by Willo (10 Oct 2022 4.02pm)

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 10 Oct 22 4.04pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by Willo

Referees are not beyond reproach and do err from time to time but by-and-large perform with some aplomb under great pressure in games of great alacrity and intensity.

Edited by Willo (10 Oct 2022 3.33pm)

Of course I am exaggerating and somewhat parodying the usual cries heard from football fans though have to disagree now VAR is in use.

The pressure is huge yes. A referee cannot see everything, at every angle, all of the time of course not. Some decisions will have to be made subjectively yes. The referees are operating under pressure/incentive from 'bigger clubs'/the FA/corporations/other influences - about as provable as it is possible to dismiss entirely. The manner in which the match is officiated will always be down to the referee's prerogative which therefore inevitably will always be open to scrutiny and usually have more attention from the 'aggrieved' side, yes.

Ultimately, with VAR now in usage the basis of, and motivation for the implementation is one that would suggest the officiating of games is more accurate and officials are less open to scrutiny. We are not seeing this and have a catalogue of controversies and bad decisions each week. It may even be worse now.

Now, I am inclined to suggest that the further upon further complication of the rules has made things a lot harder and certainly not any clearer. This has made referees lean further towards application of frequently ambiguous wordings as opposed to their own opinions on footballing decisions. Everybody always now refers to 'the rules' as if we're playing an entirely different game now.

My final stance however is that whilst all the above is relevant, I feel as though referees too frequently make decisions which suggest bias and more so a lack of footballing understanding. The logic or thought process seems missing far too often which, along with the obfuscation of rules, has made the situation far worse. I think footballing bodies have tried to take the focus off of referees and also protect them however they seem to be making things worse. I still don't understand why referees cannot explain their decisions and are protected from accountability to such an extreme. Does not have to be in front of a camera, immediately pre-match however I think this would go a long way, especially in dismissing corruption rumours. Were I, by some unfortunate parallel universe shift, a PL referee and officiating a neutral game (wouldn't be many these days) as I should be, I would have no qualms in explaining any controversy and having to face the music where called out for not doing my job properly - in which instance I would issue an apology. All the danger that might bring must surely still be in existence and more toxic as things stand now.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View Willo's Profile Willo Online Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 10 Oct 22 4.17pm Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

Of course I am exaggerating and somewhat parodying the usual cries heard from football fans though have to disagree now VAR is in use.

The pressure is huge yes. A referee cannot see everything, at every angle, all of the time of course not. Some decisions will have to be made subjectively yes. The referees are operating under pressure/incentive from 'bigger clubs'/the FA/corporations/other influences - about as provable as it is possible to dismiss entirely. The manner in which the match is officiated will always be down to the referee's prerogative which therefore inevitably will always be open to scrutiny and usually have more attention from the 'aggrieved' side, yes.

Ultimately, with VAR now in usage the basis of, and motivation for the implementation is one that would suggest the officiating of games is more accurate and officials are less open to scrutiny. We are not seeing this and have a catalogue of controversies and bad decisions each week. It may even be worse now.

Now, I am inclined to suggest that the further upon further complication of the rules has made things a lot harder and certainly not any clearer. This has made referees lean further towards application of frequently ambiguous wordings as opposed to their own opinions on footballing decisions. Everybody always now refers to 'the rules' as if we're playing an entirely different game now.

My final stance however is that whilst all the above is relevant, I feel as though referees too frequently make decisions which suggest bias and more so a lack of footballing understanding. The logic or thought process seems missing far too often which, along with the obfuscation of rules, has made the situation far worse. I think footballing bodies have tried to take the focus off of referees and also protect them however they seem to be making things worse. I still don't understand why referees cannot explain their decisions and are protected from accountability to such an extreme. Does not have to be in front of a camera, immediately pre-match however I think this would go a long way, especially in dismissing corruption rumours. Were I, by some unfortunate parallel universe shift, a PL referee and officiating a neutral game (wouldn't be many these days) as I should be, I would have no qualms in explaining any controversy and having to face the music where called out for not doing my job properly - in which instance I would issue an apology. All the danger that might bring must surely still be in existence and more toxic as things stand now.

I garland your comments with praise for your eloquent, cerebral and rhetorical panache but with respect I do not stand four-square behind each and every point you have raised.

Edited by Willo (10 Oct 2022 4.18pm)

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 10 Oct 22 4.40pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by Willo

I garland your comments with praise for your eloquent, cerebral and rhetorical panache but with respect I do not stand four-square behind each and every point you have raised.

Edited by Willo (10 Oct 2022 4.18pm)

And that's the beauty of the game Willo and life in general. It is just my subjective opinion which is no authority nor guarantee of objective correctness whatsoever but I cannot for the life of me understand what goes through referee's heads sometimes and would most welcome an explanation from the individuals for the removal of any lingering, pernicious thoughts that may lead perhaps not myself but certainly others up false garden paths!

I have long opined the proclaimed atrocities are ineptitude as opposed to anything more malevolent and will caveat, especially in light of the criticism levelled at him from the most hard done by peoples in the history of mankind (scousers), that Michael Oliver for me is one referee I not only hold no grudge against but actually consider a very adept referee. I would not think that if I was so blindly committed to 'hating' upon the officials.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View Willo's Profile Willo Online Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 10 Oct 22 5.02pm Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

Originally posted by Nicholas91

And that's the beauty of the game Willo and life in general. It is just my subjective opinion which is no authority nor guarantee of objective correctness whatsoever but I cannot for the life of me understand what goes through referee's heads sometimes and would most welcome an explanation from the individuals for the removal of any lingering, pernicious thoughts that may lead perhaps not myself but certainly others up false garden paths!

I have long opined the proclaimed atrocities are ineptitude as opposed to anything more malevolent and will caveat, especially in light of the criticism levelled at him from the most hard done by peoples in the history of mankind (scousers), that Michael Oliver for me is one referee I not only hold no grudge against but actually consider a very adept referee. I would not think that if I was so blindly committed to 'hating' upon the officials.

Exceedingly eloquent as ever.

I have always maintained that referees, being human beings, do err from time to time having to make instant decisions in "Pressure cooker" environments but I do not accept these can be attributed to ineptitude.

Apropos referees having to explain their actions, I believe they would only be asked to do so to respond to controversial incidents and replies might even generate further controversy! They would not be asked to explain any decisions which showed them in a very positive light, accordingly there would be a lack of balance with referees only being thrust in front of the cameras when it was deemed by the media an apology was justified due to a faux-pas.

I understand the clamour for post-match explanations but there is a bigger picture.Referees already have to explain the rationale behind their thinking as part of a forensic assessment after each match.


Edited by Willo (10 Oct 2022 5.19pm)

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 10 Oct 22 5.13pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

It has been scientifically proven that refs are biased. The factors are largely psychological and multiple. Obvious things like home team comes into it. An interesting finding in our case is that refs favour successful teams, and research indicates that refs favour high reputation teams and players. It's not like we see it with our own eyes every week.
In the last match, when we were time wasting at the end, imagine that had been away at Old Trafford. We would have been penalised. So, the home advantage and Leeds being no bigger than us really (currently) meant we could get away with it.
Chelsea got all the decisions against us, by and large. Man City.
Usually, the games fit the pattern.

 


Patrick Vieira's
Red and Blue Army!

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 10 Oct 22 5.19pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by Willo

Exceedingly eloquent as ever.

I have always maintained that referees, being human beings, do err from time to time having to make instant decisions in "Pressure cooker" environments but I do not accept these can be attributed to ineptitude.

Apropos referees having to explain their actions, I believe they would only be asked to do so to respond to controversial incidents and replies might even generate further controversy! They would not be asked to explain any decisions which showed them in a very positive light, accordingly there would be a lack of balance with referees only being thrust in front of the cameras when it was deemed by the media an apology was justified.

Willo, I agree on first point entirely however with VAR now it has caused further fuel for the proverbial fire in my own humble opinion. As previously mentioned VAR is intended to relieve the pressure and subsequent fallout from a incorrect decision which would be influenced or hampered by live circumstances and the evidence so far is suggesting that hasn't happened or isn't happening as intended or desired. It must also be stated that officials, experts/pundits, fans et al as individuals or a collective will always disagree too, no matter the evidence and literature available.

Secondly, I am entirely accepting of the fact that my views on explanations and accountability are not well researched, evidenced, considerate of all variables or even entirely thought through! More of a personal desire and less the academic proposal. I have neither the time nor, due to a current bug + chest infection, energy to invest as things stand! It's more a longstanding 'beef' I've quietly held.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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