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October 1 2023 4.21pm

Collective Failure

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View NEILLO's Profile NEILLO Flag Shoreham-by-Sea 28 Mar 23 12.08pm Send a Private Message to NEILLO Add NEILLO as a friend

I havenít posted in a while, and in that time I have reflected on where Palace are currently at and how and why they got there.

I see it as a Collective Failure.

The Board

Starting at The Top.

There appears to be no unification at this level. Harris and Blitzer seem to be passive and have empowered Parish to be responsible for the day to day running of the club. The other shareholder, John Textor, is reported to be at odds with Parish over the way he was using his Palace shareholding into his purchase of Lyon. It was also reported that Textor was unhappy that his most recent injection of funds wasnít fully utilised in the January transfer window.

It has also been reported that the Board were split in the decision to sack Vieira. The fact that Josh Harris was at the Brighton game suggests that he may have been in favour of Vieira going.
Whatever, the Ď tone at the top Ď has not been good.

If it is true that the Board were considering Vieiraís position as long ago as February 2022, then itís hardly surprising that he received minimal backing in the transfer market. But that doesnít make it right. Itís setting up to fail.

Conclusion ; The ownership structure of the club is dysfunctional and itís having an impact in a number of ways. The stadium re-development , investment in playing squad and management of contracts within the existing squad ( Iíll refer to that again shortly ). It needs resolving.

Director of Football

This title can mean different things at different clubs. I donít know where Dougieís responsibilities begin and end.

If it includes recommending potential signings to Parish and the Manager then heís had some notable successes - Guita, Olise, Eze, Andersen and Guehi. Given that the club seem to spend money in cycles rather than regularly during transfer windows, I think heís had a quiet time save for signing of the younger players that go into the Academy system.

If he also influences the retention of players and their contracts, then he has been less successful.
Once again this summer we have a number of players out of contract. Itís all about opinions of course, but quite why Luka hasnít been moved on, why we have no competition at left back, why we have had to rely on right backs past their prime etc etc. To that Iíll add the decision to sign Mateta permanently and have no call back included in the Butland loan deal. He must also have known we would be left light in midfield last summer.

Conclusion ; I donít know if Freedman is value for money or not. Parishís preference for surrounding himself with former players doesnít mean that they are necessarily the best people for the job.

Patrick Vieira

I started to have my doubts about him after we lost to Chelsea in the Cup Semi Final last season.
However, I fully supported him this season, albeit he looked defeated after the Brentford away game. Most pundits agree that he was not well supported in the transfer market. Perhaps we now know the reason why. To quote the cliche, Ďí itís a results business Ďí. And given the way 2023 has been I think it was the right call to sack him. Much as I didnít want to see that happen. Ultimately I donít think he selected the right support staff that could have helped him find the solutions he needed. And given his lack of experience in managing at this level, a better right hand man would have been beneficial.

Conclusion ; Had the right intentions and did a good job last season. Losing the heart of last seasonís midfield was a problem he failed to solve. The quality of play and general approach this season was of a manager and team that had lost their way and couldnít find their way back. Results dictated that he had to go and it was hard to see him turning things around even with a run of supposed easier fixtures.

The Players

This seasonís Player of the Year will be a tough one. Guehi or Andersen for me. As for the rest, they have been disappointing as a group. They did look as though they had lost their collective faith in the process, and understandably confidence has nose dived as the winless run has continued. Itís now up to them. Hodgson will be looking at them through a different lens to Vieira, and the hope is that they respond and start delivering.

Conclusion ; Now is the time for them to step up and take responsibility. The question is how quickly they will adapt to Royís style. Time is not on their side.

 


Old, Ungifted and White

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View MrRobbo's Profile MrRobbo Flag Purley 28 Mar 23 12.37pm Send a Private Message to MrRobbo Add MrRobbo as a friend

A lot of sense spoken there.

In reality, because we get zero insight from the club, all we can do is look at what we can see and try to work out what is going on. And regardless of who's fault it was, the threadbare squad is a clear sign that something isn't working as it should. Money, strategy, personnel - only those inside will know.

Its why I've latched on to the whole DoF thing. I'm not saying Dougie is terrible, there is some demonstrable success. What I'm saying is that Parish seams to surround himself with familiar faces. Are they 100% right for the roles, could we get better.

Say for example. Newcastle DoF, is a chap called Dan Ashworth. Played a bit of footie, but then was Academy director at Posh, CoE at Cambridge, assistant manager at WBA, FA director of elite development, technical director at Brighton, and then Newcastle poached him. Whereas we've got Steve's mate with zero experience.


Whilst not always useful, its always good to look around for some context.

Brentford and Brighton - at least from the outside it feels like there is real cohesion throughout the club and everyone is united around a strategy. Both are also pretty trailblazing with some of what they do. e.g. Brighton's recruitment, Brentford's academy, and having joint DoF's and 'moneyball'

West Ham and Everton - have spent lots of money consistently, seams like a fair amount of infighting.

Bournemouth seam incapable of staying in the league

Leicester have failed to capitalise on an amazing platform/achievement

So we're not the only ones!

 

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View Skip's Profile Skip Flag bexley 28 Mar 23 1.14pm Send a Private Message to Skip Add Skip as a friend

I think the problem we have at the moment is I am not convinced that our DoF and current manager see eye to eye. There were a number of signings that Freedman made when Roy was our manager that he clearly didn't rate or see how they going to fit into his system. Max Meyer was clearly a signing that Roy didn't really buy into. Batshuayi was another one we paid vast amounts of loan fees for but didn't really get much game time. He also took an age to replace Hennessey with Guita.

More recently we ended up moulding a team around a player we didn't own, hoping we were going to re-sign him. When that didn't happen we've resorted in trying to plug a gap with players not quite up to the level that Gallagher was at. His energy levels were infectious, where team mates would see him chasing people down and join the press that he created.

Not signing a right back was a huge mistake. The two worst right backs in the Premier League both play for Palace. We sold Wan Bissaka for a decent fee and reverted back to the player he replaced.

I'm not sure Mateta will ever be good enough for this level. Like a lot of team mates he doesn't seem to be anywhere near fit enough. I'd be interested to see how many times he's completed 90 minutes for us. I bet it isn't many. He's the sort of player I can see playing for Charlton or a club similar. A centre half playing against him has a pretty easy ride.

Edited by Skip (28 Mar 2023 1.15pm)

 

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View johnny the eagle's Profile johnny the eagle Flag wivenhoe 28 Mar 23 1.34pm Send a Private Message to johnny the eagle Add johnny the eagle as a friend

In several other posts also, in other threads, I have mentioned a lack of investment. Stating as I did that the last decent striker we had was Murray. I stick by what I said, I got shot down for saying so. But, lack of investment ain`t just about splashing out millions on players, but, also about investing in players what don't cost the earth and are gems we can get in a bit cheaper, Mr. Freedman. I said before it pains me to say it but, look at br1-3on they can do it. Also, planning for our future is about investing, not having 2 fullbacks who are past their prime, no disrespect to either of them. Investment to me means investing to get this club going forward, not standing still or, going backward. Not just in playing staff, but, in all areas that need investing in.

 


South London born and bred
red and blue till im dead.

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View Willo's Profile Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 28 Mar 23 1.51pm Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

Originally posted by johnny the eagle

In several other posts also, in other threads, I have mentioned a lack of investment. Stating as I did that the last decent striker we had was Murray. I stick by what I said, I got shot down for saying so. But, lack of investment ain`t just about splashing out millions on players, but, also about investing in players what don't cost the earth and are gems we can get in a bit cheaper, Mr. Freedman. I said before it pains me to say it but, look at br1-3on they can do it. Also, planning for our future is about investing, not having 2 fullbacks who are past their prime, no disrespect to either of them. Investment to me means investing to get this club going forward, not standing still or, going backward. Not just in playing staff, but, in all areas that need investing in.

Brighton's mathematicians 'Crunch' the data they receive and filter the results through to the football department.

Mitoma's data was off the scale in his final season at Kawaski Frontale and Brighton signed him for £2.5 Mill before loaning him to Union Saint-Gilloise owned by Tony Bloom.

 

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View fish mitten's Profile fish mitten Flag Chelmsford 28 Mar 23 1.58pm Send a Private Message to fish mitten Add fish mitten as a friend

A well constructed piece by Neillo and sums up the situation as a lot of fans seem to be thinking.

For me you have to go down to the root cause of what probably started the malaise that seems to have encompassed the club. I think there was an expression about sleepwalking into relegation.

At the beginning of the season, my 14 year old son suggested that we (him, me and daughter) did a prediction of how we thought the Premier League table would finish this season. I explained that I would but would revisit mine after the transfer window had finished. I initially put Palace down as 12th, but after the transfer window had changed this to 18th.

He said to me how could I change it so much and my response was that I was expecting another 3 or 4 players who could compete for the first team and the squad was the most disjointed it had been for several years. There were 3 positions that were totally inadequate and another (central midfield) where the options weren't great. It can be a thin line between mid table safety and relegation.

Who is to blame for this? Well it's not the players and probably not the manager, as I imagine he would only say what he thought we needed. It basically rests with the recruitment team and the board for the funds and the sanctioning of new players.

Did the recruitment team not come up with much? Don't know, though like to think not as that is their job. Are they as good as some other teams? Who knows? From the players we acquire it seems to be mainly from the UK or France and perhaps Ireland, but the net seems not to be cast very wide.

For me the Board are probably the most culpable. I can't believe that the Manager could see the gaping holes in the squad the recruitment team could not come forward with suggestions. The Board either felt we had enough to stay up, were not prepared to sanction the bids for new players as didn't have the funds or spent the entire window wanting two players who were never likely to come here (Gallagher and AWB). Possibly a combination of these.

Long reply I know. For me the blame for the malaise setting in starts with the Board. We finished last season well, but it was not a time to rest on our laurels. Several players who were barely good enough last year are a year older and still here. Players left and were not replaced (Gallagher, Benteke). We needed the transfer window of 2021 to be replicated in 2022 just to continue to stand still.

The recruitment team - if they are not up to it, it's up to the Board to replace them.

Vieira. Yes he made mistakes and look dis-illusioned at the end and therefore perhaps had to go. However, did this happen because he knew he hadn't been supported?

The players. Yes at times they look lazy, however many of them are virtually un-droppable, again down to the lack of options in the squad.

So for me it's the Board. May be it doesn't function properly because of the way it was set up or maybe they or just Steve Parish become incredibly complacent. I only hope they should we stay up they will have learned from their mistakes and do whatever they can to support a new manager next season. I reckon we will need 7-8 new players next season.

Thinking we have got away with it and trying to wing it for next season by bringing in 3-4 players for the future is going to be a certain recipe for disaster.

 

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View Midlands Eagle's Profile Midlands Eagle Flag 28 Mar 23 2.08pm Send a Private Message to Midlands Eagle Add Midlands Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Skip

I think the problem we have at the moment is I am not convinced that our DoF and current manager see eye to eye. There were a number of signings that Freedman made when Roy was our manager that he clearly didn't rate or see how they going to fit into his system. Max Meyer was clearly a signing that Roy didn't really buy into. Batshuayi was another one we paid vast amounts of loan fees for but didn't really get much game time.

It is rumoured that we were going for Conor Gallagher but it was Roy that said that he wanted Batshuayi instead

 

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View Elpis's Profile Elpis Flag In a pub 28 Mar 23 5.09pm Send a Private Message to Elpis Add Elpis as a friend

Originally posted by MrRobbo

Brentford's academy,

Brentford disspanded their academy years ago , changing to a model of a B team of senior 'reserves' that play freindly matches against U23 sides
[Link]

All clubs have different set ups and frankly Im pissed when people keep refering to other teams . Some have had a good year ,some got a jump on others (us) with the post Brexit rules with regard signing foriegn players (Brighton did particually well here) Remeber though folks , form is tempoary ,class is permanent

Good post by Neillo , we can only guess whats going on behind the scenes and its as good a guess as any . We can see whats going on on the pitch though and its not been good enough , thats the manager and the players , hopfully removing PV will focus the side in a better direction

 


And we still need a striker

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 28 Mar 23 7.02pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Great OP and thoroughly agree with summary Neillo. Surely has to be a damning and worrying indicator if football fans, judging from other posts, can develop a general consensus on 'what has/is going wrong' across the board. I was particularly impressed with summary of the PV situation too as I completely agree.

Trying no to pile in on what would essentially just amount to criticism, for therapeutic reasons and in an attempt to contribute to discussions, here's some thoughts including what I'd like to see:

The Board: It's quite obvious to say 'put some money into the team please' but it is the matter at hand. I only have very limited insight, as it mostly comes anecdotally from various sources, however I do worry about Parish's seemingly Eagle-like grip on control of things (pun intended). Apparently the Americans wanted to invest more in team but he hampered this and I do worry about what seems to me to be a lot of smoke and mirrors often coming from him and his PR team. I hold a general but I'd say fair scepticism of musing as to what extent a PL team can be run with a contextual pauper at the helm maintaining absolute control over everything including practical footballing matters? TBH I don't have any immediate suggestion for this situation beyond 'spend!'. I can't imagine the level of fury at Palace if we were to be relegated, have the team absolutely fall apart, encounter financial trouble as the Americans back out and no progress is made on stadium whatsoever. Parish would have to leave town swiftly.

DoF: Again we have one bloke leading here, who's in the job for sentimental more so than qualification reasons, and he hits a few but misses many more. It all seems to be part of Parish's yes men appointees, who may have little choice other than loyalty to him, and beyond pulling together a top half PL team using peanuts is always going to be a near impossible task. I'd like to see this function properly resourced, with appropriately capable individuals, beyond just a 'Dougie job'.

Manager: There's been a few failed ventures here and we have run back to Dad with Roy inevitably. Not Roy's fault, nothing to do with him, but any new appointment surely has to align to a holistic picture. I'd also like for our next manager to not be sold a fairytale, as I feel we as fans often are, and given an understanding of things which mirror the reality. I have the impression other managers have been led a merry dance by Parish and co. leading to disillusionment, apathy and resentment which we see play out on the pitch.

Players: We still need to resource the first team appropriately in the very first instance however also need depth in squad. We have gone from a geriatric side to a very young and therefore immature one with a few old codgers hanging on. We remind me of a Sunday league 'vets' team where they've allowed a few teenagers to join in whilst playing against men's teams. Investment in academy great, the new youthful signings too, however the doing things on the cheap approach has led to a 'buy cheap, buy twice' scenario often playing out, a lack of balance on the pitch and a depleted team that never quite looks right.

All in all, and in summary, we need a better recruitment system, some relevant financial backing, money used on the first team before anything else and a manager capable of leading the squad. All these things need to be done in coordination however and without a holistic and synesthetic approach we risk looking further disjointed as a club/team and going down. Very aware all very easily said than done however I'd at least like to see movement towards these things. Despite the decade at the top we still look to be fighting each crocodile individually as it approaches the boat, stumbling from one problem to another. We've managed to stay alive thus far however cannot and will not be sustainable.

Edited by Nicholas91 (28 Mar 2023 7.05pm)

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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View Croydon-Trucker's Profile Croydon-Trucker Flag Cashel 28 Mar 23 7.17pm Send a Private Message to Croydon-Trucker Add Croydon-Trucker as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

It is rumoured that we were going for Conor Gallagher but it was Roy that said that he wanted Batshuayi instead

Indeed this is so . Conor had his medical done and was ready to come to Palace somehow we ended up with Bats .

 


If you think life's hard , wait till you get married .

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View MrRobbo's Profile MrRobbo Flag Purley 29 Mar 23 9.38am Send a Private Message to MrRobbo Add MrRobbo as a friend

Originally posted by Elpis

Brentford disspanded their academy years ago , changing to a model of a B team of senior 'reserves' that play freindly matches against U23 sides
[Link]

All clubs have different set ups and frankly Im pissed when people keep refering to other teams . Some have had a good year ,some got a jump on others (us) with the post Brexit rules with regard signing foriegn players (Brighton did particually well here) Remeber though folks , form is tempoary ,class is permanent

Good post by Neillo , we can only guess whats going on behind the scenes and its as good a guess as any . We can see whats going on on the pitch though and its not been good enough , thats the manager and the players , hopfully removing PV will focus the side in a better direction

Ya I know. It was a reference to them being willing to break the status quo, with their academy and requitement policy.

Nothing wrong with looking to other teams IMO, to good and bad. Context is always important in life.


 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 29 Mar 23 9.50am Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by MrRobbo

Ya I know. It was a reference to them being willing to break the status quo, with their academy and requitement policy.

Nothing wrong with looking to other teams IMO, to good and bad. Context is always important in life.


I'd suggest identifying 'good practice' must at least be somewhat productive, especially when you've only employed bad practice for so long.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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