Israel / Palestine
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 Stirlingsays  30 Jul 14 11.57am |
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Quote serial thriller at 30 Jul 2014 11.31am
Shady Israeli propaganda initiative #2319: [Link] I feel like throughout this thread those of us who are siding with the Palestinians have been on the defensive. Arguments tend to go something like: Nick: "Look at this awful thing Israel are doing" So I'd like to go on the offensive, with two simple questions... 1) If we are in agreement that there are terrible atrocities being committed by both sides, why is it that the West still supports Israel, both in terms of arms, finance and politics, and how can this be justified? 2) It's easy to call for Hamas to destroy tunnels and their rockets, but this is equivalent to calling for Israel to destroy their iron dome, entire military facility, nuclear weapons programme, end arms ties with the US and end the blockade etc etc. because you are in effect asking a nation at war to totally sever its military capabilities. What would you say a reasonable compromise for the Israelis would be were Hamas/Fatah to agree to what Israel's demands?
Taking out the racial/ideological aspects Israel is protected because the alternative is far worse for the west. Look at the region....Look at who support and fund the Palestinians outside of the west....Therein lies that answer. Your other question has already been answered multiple times in this thread. Hamas's rockets and tunnels don't protect them at all. Hamas continue with it because fighting Israel militarily is obviously an expression of hate but also because that is what their constitution calls for. Importantly it is what ensures that they continue to receive funds from the anti semites in Iran and around the Arab and Western world. As for an Israel compromise for the rockets and tunnels? This doesn't make sense to me. You are seeing the Israeli reaction to rockets and tunnels....They will use the IDF to periodically destroy tunnels and reduce rocket fire......That appears now to be the response for both Labour and Likud. What is the incentive for Israel to compromise? And tell me.....What is the point of compromising with Hamas for Israel? They have the military option. We will probably be seeing rinse and repeat every five years or so. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Jul 2014 2.57pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Jimenez  SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 30 Jul 14 1.57pm |
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Pro USA & Israel |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 30 Jul 14 2.42pm |
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If borders are closed, and the tunnels lead to Israel, where are they getting the rockets from or parts from?
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| Stirlingsays 30 Jul 14 3.02pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 30 Jul 2014 2.42pm
If borders are closed, and the tunnels lead to Israel, where are they getting the rockets from or parts from?
The test will once the IDF finish and leave Gaza......Hamas's stockpile must be running low.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Johnny Eagles  berlin 30 Jul 14 5.15pm |
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I think we should just drop a nuke on the lot of them. Sorted the japs out.
...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread... |
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pefwin  Where you have to have an English ... 30 Jul 14 5.55pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 30 Jul 2014 9.32am
Quote Stirlingsays at 30 Jul 2014 4.55am
Quote nickgusset at 30 Jul 2014 2.33am
On this page it too claims that Israel 'created' Hamas so that it could have an unacceptable enemy to fight. You say it only did it to sow division yet you link to a webpage that says it went far beyond that. From Hamas's wiki page on its creation in 1970. Israel may or may not have intended to sow division.....But it is completely unproven and nonsense to suggest that Israel intended to create another enemy for itself......Which the page you have linked to states.
But, as with so much short-term thinking, the genie has come out of the bottle and bit them back. Just the same as "us" re jihadists in Afghanistan in the late 70's/early 80's against the Soviet Union, "us" encouraging various jihadi groups to use London as a base in the 80's/90's,and in a contemporary context, just like us with groups like ISIS in Syria. No more, no less.
Edited by legaleagle (30 Jul 2014 9.33am) Edited by legaleagle (30 Jul 2014 9.34am) Edited by legaleagle (30 Jul 2014 9.47am) Excellent post.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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| Stirlingsays 30 Jul 14 6.10pm |
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Quote pefwin at 30 Jul 2014 5.55pm
Quote legaleagle at 30 Jul 2014 9.32am
But, as with so much short-term thinking, the genie has come out of the bottle and bit them back. Just the same as "us" re jihadists in Afghanistan in the late 70's/early 80's against the Soviet Union, "us" encouraging various jihadi groups to use London as a base in the 80's/90's,and in a contemporary context, just like us with groups like ISIS in Syria. No more, no less.
Excellent post.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 30 Jul 14 6.19pm |
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So do you now agree Stirling, that Israel was in some way responsible for the rise of Hamas in Palestine? something you previously denied.
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| pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 30 Jul 14 6.27pm |
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Oh dear, I see we have got to the point where criticising the Israeli Government is anti-Semitic. It seems that the sole issue put forward for the killing spree is Hamas but even Hamas no longer refer to their Charter and it is now often used by Jews to excuse genocide, even though Hamas has changed its views. However Hamas is a violent organisation born out of the violence of the environment. The current conflict was precipitated by the murder of young adults / youths by both sides, and had nothing to with Hamas. The world attention on MY-17 seen as a good time to bury bad news. The real issue for Hamas is that in the last 18 months all funding for Hamas has dried up leaving only Qatar as a funding stream. Hamas' time is limited and the issue is that the evil that will take its place is far worse. Without the traditional parties, the relatively moderate Sunni Palestinians will welcome ISIS similar to Sadam Husssein's minority ethnic tribes in Iraq. Perhaps the economy of Israel has got so intertwined with militarism that they need an enemy to justify the US funding, the required "Lebensraum" and social structures within society.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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| ghosteagle 30 Jul 14 6.28pm |
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Quote pefwin at 30 Jul 2014 6.27pm
Oh dear, I see we have got to the point where criticising the Israeli Government is anti-Semitic. It seems that the sole issue put forward for the killing spree is Hamas but even Hamas no longer refer to their Charter and it is now often used by Jews to excuse genocide, even though Hamas has changed its views. However Hamas is a violent organisation born out of the violence of the environment. The current conflict was precipitated by the murder of young adults / youths by both sides, and had nothing to with Hamas. The world attention on MY-17 seen as a good time to bury bad news. The real issue for Hamas is that in the last 18 months all funding for Hamas has dried up leaving only Qatar as a funding stream. Hamas' time is limited and the issue is that the evil that will take its place is far worse. Without the traditional parties, the relatively moderate Sunni Palestinians will welcome ISIS similar to Sadam Husssein's minority ethnic tribes in Iraq. Perhaps the economy of Israel has got so intertwined with militarism that they need an enemy to justify the US funding, the required "Lebensraum" and social structures within society. Excellent post.
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| Stirlingsays 30 Jul 14 6.38pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 30 Jul 2014 6.19pm
So do you now agree Stirling, that Israel was in some way responsible for the rise of Hamas in Palestine? something you previously denied.
All alone I stated that Israel help create an organization that eventually became what we call Hamas. You linked to a page that stated that Israel deliberately created an enemy to fight with. Israel didn't create the 'Hamas' we see today whatsoever. I regard any suggestion along those lines as deliberate misinformation.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 30 Jul 14 6.45pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 30 Jul 2014 6.38pm
Quote nickgusset at 30 Jul 2014 6.19pm
So do you now agree Stirling, that Israel was in some way responsible for the rise of Hamas in Palestine? something you previously denied.
All alone I stated that Israel help create an organization that eventually became what we call Hamas. You linked to a page that stated that Israel deliberately created an enemy to fight with. Israel didn't create the 'Hamas' we see today whatsoever. I regard any suggestion along those lines as deliberate misinformation. Before I posted that link I also intimated that they deliberately set up Hamas for their own ends, you denied this.
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