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croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 17 May 17 8.55am
Originally posted by matt_himself Are you a taxi driver? Yes matt, among other stuff, that was unbelievable what cameron did and i feel for my collegues who dont have the other stuff to fall back on

croydon proud

Any european country i fancy! 17 May 17 8.55am

Originally posted by matt_himself

Are you a taxi driver?

Yes matt, among other stuff, that was unbelievable what cameron did and i feel for my collegues who dont have the other stuff to fall back on

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 17 May 17 9.14am
Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch I looked at this when you said this previously. There is an element of pedantry as a country can default which by and large is similar. If it happens its doesn't matter what it is called it is a Lorry load of pain It's quite an important distinction. All the UK's debts are in GBP as it issues bonds in GBP and can just issue new bonds as and when it likes so it cannot go bankrupt. A country can choose to default on its debt but that would be a political choice and not an economic one. The point you're making is really one relating to a situation where the pound is overvalued and the currency massively devalues, which effectively makes the pound cheaper and as we saw in the early 90s causes capital flight and usually a recession. It's not the same thing. If you look at Japan they have debt at over 230% of their GDP (more than double ours) and they can borrow at lower rates than our government. While borrowing cannot be extended forever we still have the capacity and ability to borrow to invest in the UK. The government can issue long term gilts at very low rates of interest and even index linked bonds at low rates. Now is the time to invest in our economy. Instead of worrying about a bankrupt government, we should be focused on employment and inflation and how best to spend as much money as we need to put people to work without causing inflation, which is the real worry (not bankruptcy). There is still significant spare capacity in our economy and a savings glut with the private sector reluctant to invest. The recent growth we've seen has been from credit backed consumer spending. A very dangerous state of affairs. Consumers, by the way, can go bankrupt.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 17 May 17 9.14am

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

I looked at this when you said this previously. There is an element of pedantry as a country can default which by and large is similar. If it happens its doesn't matter what it is called it is a Lorry load of pain

It's quite an important distinction. All the UK's debts are in GBP as it issues bonds in GBP and can just issue new bonds as and when it likes so it cannot go bankrupt. A country can choose to default on its debt but that would be a political choice and not an economic one.

The point you're making is really one relating to a situation where the pound is overvalued and the currency massively devalues, which effectively makes the pound cheaper and as we saw in the early 90s causes capital flight and usually a recession. It's not the same thing.

If you look at Japan they have debt at over 230% of their GDP (more than double ours) and they can borrow at lower rates than our government. While borrowing cannot be extended forever we still have the capacity and ability to borrow to invest in the UK. The government can issue long term gilts at very low rates of interest and even index linked bonds at low rates. Now is the time to invest in our economy.

Instead of worrying about a bankrupt government, we should be focused on employment and inflation and how best to spend as much money as we need to put people to work without causing inflation, which is the real worry (not bankruptcy). There is still significant spare capacity in our economy and a savings glut with the private sector reluctant to invest. The recent growth we've seen has been from credit backed consumer spending. A very dangerous state of affairs. Consumers, by the way, can go bankrupt.

Rudi Hedman Caterham 17 May 17 9.48am
The economy relying on consumer spending and everyone going crazily spending in shopping centres was what we warned of in 2008. A few years later the economic correspondents are hailing the growth on the high street. Idiots. I'm not saying we should wear old leather waistcoats and check shirts, operating under maximum efficiency 24/7 as the Germans did, and some probably still wear their sex pest clobber, but there are extremes. High productivity vs high indulgence in credit and imported stuff. ''Buying stuff. The uk's favourite pastime.'' Andrew Marr's final comment on the history of Britain. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 17 May 17 9.48am

The economy relying on consumer spending and everyone going crazily spending in shopping centres was what we warned of in 2008. A few years later the economic correspondents are hailing the growth on the high street. Idiots.

I'm not saying we should wear old leather waistcoats and check shirts, operating under maximum efficiency 24/7 as the Germans did, and some probably still wear their sex pest clobber, but there are extremes. High productivity vs high indulgence in credit and imported stuff. ''Buying stuff. The uk's favourite pastime.'' Andrew Marr's final comment on the history of Britain.

COYP

.TUX. 17 May 17 10.21am
The FTSE-100 stock market index hits an all-time high of 7454, simultaneously the British government releases statistics showing that debt judgements and bankruptcy filings across the UK soared 35% in the first quarter of 2017 to the highest level in a decade. British consumers are on a debt binge, borrowing (and now defaulting) at record levels. 'Strong and stable'? Buy Litecoin.

.TUX.

17 May 17 10.21am

The FTSE-100 stock market index hits an all-time high of 7454, simultaneously the British government releases statistics showing that debt judgements and bankruptcy filings across the UK soared 35% in the first quarter of 2017 to the highest level in a decade. British consumers are on a debt binge, borrowing (and now defaulting) at record levels.

'Strong and stable'?

Buy Litecoin.

Stirlingsays 17 May 17 10.23am
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman The economy relying on consumer spending and everyone going crazily spending in shopping centres was what we warned of in 2008. A few years later the economic correspondents are hailing the growth on the high street. Idiots. I'm not saying we should wear old leather waistcoats and check shirts, operating under maximum efficiency 24/7 as the Germans did, and some probably still wear their sex pest clobber, but there are extremes. High productivity vs high indulgence in credit and imported stuff. ''Buying stuff. The uk's favourite pastime.'' Andrew Marr's final comment on the history of Britain. There is more than a little 'German' stock in many British....I should imagine that attitude has always been prevalent in many. Check shirts are disgusting however....We should send the black shirts into every household and have them collected...and then burned in the middle of the street. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

17 May 17 10.23am

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

I'm not saying we should wear old leather waistcoats and check shirts, operating under maximum efficiency 24/7 as the Germans did, and some probably still wear their sex pest clobber, but there are extremes. High productivity vs high indulgence in credit and imported stuff. ''Buying stuff. The uk's favourite pastime.'' Andrew Marr's final comment on the history of Britain.

There is more than a little 'German' stock in many British....I should imagine that attitude has always been prevalent in many.

Check shirts are disgusting however....We should send the black shirts into every household and have them collected...and then burned in the middle of the street.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Rudi Hedman Caterham 17 May 17 10.26am
Originally posted by .TUX. The FTSE-100 stock market index hits an all-time high of 7454, simultaneously the British government releases statistics showing that debt judgements and bankruptcy filings across the UK soared 35% in the first quarter of 2017 to the highest level in a decade. British consumers are on a debt binge, borrowing (and now defaulting) at record levels. 'Strong and stable'? A nation of delusional people. I suppose this fits in with young naive people who will never in a million years earn enough to pay a higher tax rate of possibly even 40%, say wealthy people shouldn't have to pay a higher tax rate. I think when they watch reality tv they're actually living the dream, although that tax opinion isn't new from the never to have wealth some. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 17 May 17 10.26am

Originally posted by .TUX.

'Strong and stable'?

A nation of delusional people. I suppose this fits in with young naive people who will never in a million years earn enough to pay a higher tax rate of possibly even 40%, say wealthy people shouldn't have to pay a higher tax rate. I think when they watch reality tv they're actually living the dream, although that tax opinion isn't new from the never to have wealth some.

COYP

OknotOK Cockfosters, London 17 May 17 11.03am
Originally posted by matt_himself Excellent analysis of the Labour manifesto by the Resolution Foundation, which are hardly an alt right mouthpiece: [Link] A reasonable analysis for the most part. It is probably irrelevant. When Len McCluskey - even if it is for tactical purposes - is saying he doesn't think Labour can win, then I think it's fair to assume the Labour party won't be held to account for promises made in their manifesto. The income tax movement isn't likely to have a material impact on the behaviour of "high earners", because most who earn in the £80k-£120k bracket do not have the geographic flexibility so can easily relocate. And the actual impact on the high earner of the new 45% bracket isn't likely to be material enough to be really felt (say £1k a year for someone earning £100k). susmik's point that George Osborne "proved" lowering the tax rate increased tax intake has actually been proved to be false. Intake decreased the year the 50p rate was announced as those high earners who could deferred income, it increased the following year, and then like-for-like intake decreased again as deferrals couldn't be applied any more. It was just rich people being able to con the exchequer. Corporation tax? It could have an impact on some of the larger businesses that do have the ability to relocate. Certainly some businesses will chose to locate elsewhere if the tax rate is high enough. Worth noting that 26% would still be amongst the lowest in the developed world. "It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

OknotOK

Cockfosters, London 17 May 17 11.03am

Originally posted by matt_himself

Excellent analysis of the Labour manifesto by the Resolution Foundation, which are hardly an alt right mouthpiece:

[Link]

A reasonable analysis for the most part.

It is probably irrelevant. When Len McCluskey - even if it is for tactical purposes - is saying he doesn't think Labour can win, then I think it's fair to assume the Labour party won't be held to account for promises made in their manifesto.

The income tax movement isn't likely to have a material impact on the behaviour of "high earners", because most who earn in the £80k-£120k bracket do not have the geographic flexibility so can easily relocate. And the actual impact on the high earner of the new 45% bracket isn't likely to be material enough to be really felt (say £1k a year for someone earning £100k).

susmik's point that George Osborne "proved" lowering the tax rate increased tax intake has actually been proved to be false. Intake decreased the year the 50p rate was announced as those high earners who could deferred income, it increased the following year, and then like-for-like intake decreased again as deferrals couldn't be applied any more. It was just rich people being able to con the exchequer.

Corporation tax? It could have an impact on some of the larger businesses that do have the ability to relocate. Certainly some businesses will chose to locate elsewhere if the tax rate is high enough. Worth noting that 26% would still be amongst the lowest in the developed world.

"It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

npn Crowborough 17 May 17 11.15am
Originally posted by steeleye20 So you like labour but want to sack them? I like it as they could be elected in that case and be unable to do anything Not quite what I said is it? I said I quite like the manifesto. Abbott and McDonnell are blithering idiots, embarrassing, and putting them in a position of any power would be unthinkable. Corbyn could be aided by a decent shadow cabinet, instead he is filling it with yes men, ostracising the actual decent politicians in the party, and allowing talk of deselection of 'dissenters' - which sounds like it would be more at home in North Korea - "stand against that wall, you're about to be deselected". It would be interesting to see how that manifesto could be fulfilled (sadly, I suspect the answer would be that it wouldn't/couldn't be), but I can't abide the thought of those two anywhere near power (I have much less hardened opinions on Corbyn)

npn

Crowborough 17 May 17 11.15am

Originally posted by steeleye20

So you like labour but want to sack them?

I like it as they could be elected in that case and be unable to do anything

Not quite what I said is it? I said I quite like the manifesto. Abbott and McDonnell are blithering idiots, embarrassing, and putting them in a position of any power would be unthinkable. Corbyn could be aided by a decent shadow cabinet, instead he is filling it with yes men, ostracising the actual decent politicians in the party, and allowing talk of deselection of 'dissenters' - which sounds like it would be more at home in North Korea - "stand against that wall, you're about to be deselected".

It would be interesting to see how that manifesto could be fulfilled (sadly, I suspect the answer would be that it wouldn't/couldn't be), but I can't abide the thought of those two anywhere near power (I have much less hardened opinions on Corbyn)

Lyons550 Shirley 17 May 17 11.43am
Originally posted by steeleye20 I don't have any problem with communists becoming labour or ukip people becoming tory. Tired old philosophies of left and right dump them. Completely agree with this...too many looking backwards rather than forwards both within the parties and on here...I agree that History is there as a guide to hopefully preventing the same mistakes being made...but it also acts as an 'anchor'. Problem is, there's very rarely any 'new thinking' or ideas... The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 17 May 17 11.43am

Originally posted by steeleye20

I don't have any problem with communists becoming labour or ukip people becoming tory.

Tired old philosophies of left and right dump them.

Completely agree with this...too many looking backwards rather than forwards both within the parties and on here...I agree that History is there as a guide to hopefully preventing the same mistakes being made...but it also acts as an 'anchor'.

Problem is, there's very rarely any 'new thinking' or ideas...

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550 Shirley 17 May 17 11.49am
Originally posted by .TUX. The FTSE-100 stock market index hits an all-time high of 7454, simultaneously the British government releases statistics showing that debt judgements and bankruptcy filings across the UK soared 35% in the first quarter of 2017 to the highest level in a decade. British consumers are on a debt binge, borrowing (and now defaulting) at record levels. 'Strong and stable'? ...but isn't this what Labour will be doing in order to push through a lot of their pledges? It wont ALL be funded by Tax rises. Or would you dress that up as 'responsible' borrowing? The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 17 May 17 11.49am

Originally posted by .TUX.

'Strong and stable'?

...but isn't this what Labour will be doing in order to push through a lot of their pledges? It wont ALL be funded by Tax rises.

Or would you dress that up as 'responsible' borrowing?

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

.TUX. 17 May 17 12.51pm
Originally posted by Lyons550 ...but isn't this what Labour will be doing in order to push through a lot of their pledges? It wont ALL be funded by Tax rises. Or would you dress that up as 'responsible' borrowing? What does that have to do with ''consumer borrowing''? Buy Litecoin.

.TUX.

17 May 17 12.51pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

...but isn't this what Labour will be doing in order to push through a lot of their pledges? It wont ALL be funded by Tax rises.

Or would you dress that up as 'responsible' borrowing?

What does that have to do with ''consumer borrowing''?

Buy Litecoin.

Lyons550 Shirley 17 May 17 1.33pm
Originally posted by .TUX. What does that have to do with ''consumer borrowing''? Your post reads that borrowing was an issue (for you)..and reading between the lines that you thought consumer borrowing was irresponsible... The point I was making is that irresponsible borrowing regardless as to whether its consumer or by Government IS an issue...so in part I agree with you. I'm just choosing to apply that reasoning regardless of who it is that's borrowing... The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 17 May 17 1.33pm

Originally posted by .TUX.

What does that have to do with ''consumer borrowing''?

Your post reads that borrowing was an issue (for you)..and reading between the lines that you thought consumer borrowing was irresponsible...

The point I was making is that irresponsible borrowing regardless as to whether its consumer or by Government IS an issue...so in part I agree with you.

I'm just choosing to apply that reasoning regardless of who it is that's borrowing...

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Stirlingsays 17 May 17 1.35pm
Originally posted by Lyons550 Completely agree with this...too many looking backwards rather than forwards both within the parties and on here...I agree that History is there as a guide to hopefully preventing the same mistakes being made...but it also acts as an 'anchor'. Problem is, there's very rarely any 'new thinking' or ideas... So if a BNP member starts running stuff we are all ok with it. All very progressive. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

17 May 17 1.35pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

Problem is, there's very rarely any 'new thinking' or ideas...

So if a BNP member starts running stuff we are all ok with it.

All very progressive.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Lyons550 Shirley 17 May 17 1.38pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays So if a BNP member starts running stuff we are all ok with it. All very progressive. All depends on their manifesto pledges I guess... The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 17 May 17 1.38pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

So if a BNP member starts running stuff we are all ok with it.

All very progressive.

All depends on their manifesto pledges I guess...

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 2.55pm
Originally posted by .TUX. What a load of tosh. It's this blinkered stance that has helped to get us to the pitiful situation that we ALL find ourselves in today. Edited by .TUX. (16 May 2017 9.15pm) You are entitled to your opinion as I am. Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

susmik

PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 2.55pm

Originally posted by .TUX.

What a load of tosh.
It's this blinkered stance that has helped to get us to the pitiful situation that we ALL find ourselves in today.

Edited by .TUX. (16 May 2017 9.15pm)

You are entitled to your opinion as I am.

Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 2.57pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Conservatives are the party of high borrowing. Get your facts straight. Osborne austerity and tax policy was a disaster. And Corbyns manifesto released yesterday is nothing but borrow borrow and more borrowing.. Great manifesto I don't think! Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

susmik

PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 2.57pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Conservatives are the party of high borrowing. Get your facts straight. Osborne austerity and tax policy was a disaster.

And Corbyns manifesto released yesterday is nothing but borrow borrow and more borrowing.. Great manifesto I don't think!

Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 3.02pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Boris Johnson, IDS, Liam Fox, David Davis, Gove, Jeremy C*nt, Leadsom, Grayling. Loathsome and damaging In your opinion! Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

susmik

PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 3.02pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Boris Johnson, IDS, Liam Fox, David Davis, Gove, Jeremy C*nt, Leadsom, Grayling.

Loathsome and damaging

In your opinion!

Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 3.10pm
Originally posted by OknotOK A reasonable analysis for the most part. It is probably irrelevant. When Len McCluskey - even if it is for tactical purposes - is saying he doesn't think Labour can win, then I think it's fair to assume the Labour party won't be held to account for promises made in their manifesto. The income tax movement isn't likely to have a material impact on the behaviour of "high earners", because most who earn in the £80k-£120k bracket do not have the geographic flexibility so can easily relocate. And the actual impact on the high earner of the new 45% bracket isn't likely to be material enough to be really felt (say £1k a year for someone earning £100k). susmik's point that George Osborne "proved" lowering the tax rate increased tax intake has actually been proved to be false. Intake decreased the year the 50p rate was announced as those high earners who could deferred income, it increased the following year, and then like-for-like intake decreased again as deferrals couldn't be applied any more. It was just rich people being able to con the exchequer. Corporation tax? It could have an impact on some of the larger businesses that do have the ability to relocate. Certainly some businesses will chose to locate elsewhere if the tax rate is high enough. Worth noting that 26% would still be amongst the lowest in the developed world. Was it false? :https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/01/george-osborne-claims-cutting-50p-tax-rate-has-increased-take-by-8bn Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

susmik

PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 3.10pm

Originally posted by OknotOK

A reasonable analysis for the most part.

susmik's point that George Osborne "proved" lowering the tax rate increased tax intake has actually been proved to be false. Intake decreased the year the 50p rate was announced as those high earners who could deferred income, it increased the following year, and then like-for-like intake decreased again as deferrals couldn't be applied any more. It was just rich people being able to con the exchequer.

Was it false? :https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/01/george-osborne-claims-cutting-50p-tax-rate-has-increased-take-by-8bn

Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 3.11pm
Originally posted by susmik Was it false? : [Link] Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

susmik

PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 3.11pm

Originally posted by susmik

Was it false? : [Link]

Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

OknotOK Cockfosters, London 17 May 17 3.19pm
Originally posted by susmik Was it false? :https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/01/george-osborne-claims-cutting-50p-tax-rate-has-increased-take-by-8bn Yes it was. As that article references as well. "It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

OknotOK

Cockfosters, London 17 May 17 3.19pm

Originally posted by susmik

Was it false? :https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/01/george-osborne-claims-cutting-50p-tax-rate-has-increased-take-by-8bn

Yes it was. As that article references as well.

"It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

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