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Hrolf The Ganger 06 Jun 19 2.19pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle Interesting statement when 48% of people voted to stay in, which is probably a higher percentage now. One thing that Brexit is not and never will be, on either side, is best for everyone. Where we are now, leaving ASAP is the best outcome. It would perhaps be reasonable to have another vote in 20 years when we see the impact of leaving, although I would imagine that any government would be reluctant to have another referendum ever. Personally. I did not vote for economic reasons, so I am happy to remain out forever, no matter what.

Hrolf The Ganger

06 Jun 19 2.19pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Interesting statement when 48% of people voted to stay in, which is probably a higher percentage now.

One thing that Brexit is not and never will be, on either side, is best for everyone.

Where we are now, leaving ASAP is the best outcome.

It would perhaps be reasonable to have another vote in 20 years when we see the impact of leaving, although I would imagine that any government would be reluctant to have another referendum ever.

Personally. I did not vote for economic reasons, so I am happy to remain out forever, no matter what.

Maine Eagle USA 06 Jun 19 2.24pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Where we are now, leaving ASAP is the best outcome. It would perhaps be reasonable to have another vote in 20 years when we see the impact of leaving, although I would imagine that any government would be reluctant to have another referendum ever. Personally. I did not vote for economic reasons, so I am happy to remain out forever, no matter what. So let me get this straight, as we seem to see a lot of this. If being outside of the EU results in a decade long harsh economic downturn, destruction of the car industry and massive job losses, foreclosures and the like. Disclaimer: I am not saying it WILL, I am just asking a question. If all of those things come to pass, you still believe it would have been worth it? Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Maine Eagle

USA 06 Jun 19 2.24pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Where we are now, leaving ASAP is the best outcome.

It would perhaps be reasonable to have another vote in 20 years when we see the impact of leaving, although I would imagine that any government would be reluctant to have another referendum ever.

Personally. I did not vote for economic reasons, so I am happy to remain out forever, no matter what.

So let me get this straight, as we seem to see a lot of this.

If being outside of the EU results in a decade long harsh economic downturn, destruction of the car industry and massive job losses, foreclosures and the like.

Disclaimer: I am not saying it WILL, I am just asking a question.

If all of those things come to pass, you still believe it would have been worth it?

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

W12 06 Jun 19 3.05pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Where we are now, leaving ASAP is the best outcome. It would perhaps be reasonable to have another vote in 20 years when we see the impact of leaving, although I would imagine that any government would be reluctant to have another referendum ever. Personally. I did not vote for economic reasons, so I am happy to remain out forever, no matter what. There will be no EU to re-join in 20 years and if there is they are likely to re-join us rather than the other way around. Those are good reasons enough to leave. Edited by W12 (06 Jun 2019 3.06pm)

W12 06 Jun 19 3.05pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Where we are now, leaving ASAP is the best outcome.

It would perhaps be reasonable to have another vote in 20 years when we see the impact of leaving, although I would imagine that any government would be reluctant to have another referendum ever.

Personally. I did not vote for economic reasons, so I am happy to remain out forever, no matter what.

There will be no EU to re-join in 20 years and if there is they are likely to re-join us rather than the other way around. Those are good reasons enough to leave.

Edited by W12 (06 Jun 2019 3.06pm)

Stirlingsays 06 Jun 19 3.07pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle So let me get this straight, as we seem to see a lot of this. If being outside of the EU results in a decade long harsh economic downturn, destruction of the car industry and massive job losses, foreclosures and the like. Disclaimer: I am not saying it WILL, I am just asking a question. If all of those things come to pass, you still believe it would have been worth it? This reminds me of the kind of thing some religious people say......'but what if after you die you find out it was all true'.....would the atheism have been worth it? 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

06 Jun 19 3.07pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

So let me get this straight, as we seem to see a lot of this.

If being outside of the EU results in a decade long harsh economic downturn, destruction of the car industry and massive job losses, foreclosures and the like.

Disclaimer: I am not saying it WILL, I am just asking a question.

If all of those things come to pass, you still believe it would have been worth it?

This reminds me of the kind of thing some religious people say......'but what if after you die you find out it was all true'.....would the atheism have been worth it?

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Midlands Eagle 06 Jun 19 3.16pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle So let me get this straight, as we seem to see a lot of this. If being outside of the EU results in a decade long harsh economic downturn, destruction of the car industry and massive job losses, The destruction of the car industry is mainly being caused because there is just too much capacity worldwide coupled with confusion caused by the Government over diesel and their withdrawal of the grants for plug in hybrids. There was rubbish being spouted by a Labour MP on The Daily Politics today about Ford's Bridgend engine plant being caused by Brexit confusion until Andrew Neil pointed out that it was being shut in September 2020 because they had lost the contract to build engines for Jaguar Land Rover which would cease at that time

Midlands Eagle

06 Jun 19 3.16pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

So let me get this straight, as we seem to see a lot of this.

If being outside of the EU results in a decade long harsh economic downturn, destruction of the car industry and massive job losses,

The destruction of the car industry is mainly being caused because there is just too much capacity worldwide coupled with confusion caused by the Government over diesel and their withdrawal of the grants for plug in hybrids.

There was rubbish being spouted by a Labour MP on The Daily Politics today about Ford's Bridgend engine plant being caused by Brexit confusion until Andrew Neil pointed out that it was being shut in September 2020 because they had lost the contract to build engines for Jaguar Land Rover which would cease at that time

Maine Eagle USA 06 Jun 19 3.34pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays This reminds me of the kind of thing some religious people say......'but what if after you die you find out it was all true'.....would the atheism have been worth it? But what is the answer? Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Maine Eagle

USA 06 Jun 19 3.34pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

This reminds me of the kind of thing some religious people say......'but what if after you die you find out it was all true'.....would the atheism have been worth it?

But what is the answer?

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Maine Eagle USA 06 Jun 19 3.36pm
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle The destruction of the car industry is mainly being caused because there is just too much capacity worldwide coupled with confusion caused by the Government over diesel and their withdrawal of the grants for plug in hybrids. There was rubbish being spouted by a Labour MP on The Daily Politics today about Ford's Bridgend engine plant being caused by Brexit confusion until Andrew Neil pointed out that it was being shut in September 2020 because they had lost the contract to build engines for Jaguar Land Rover which would cease at that time As I said, Midlands Eagle, I am not saying this will happen per se. I was asking Hrolf, who used the term "no matter what" does he really believe that, or is there a cost that might be too high. 2 replies to that so far and nobody is actually answering the question, which might tell the story. Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Maine Eagle

USA 06 Jun 19 3.36pm

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

As I said, Midlands Eagle, I am not saying this will happen per se.

I was asking Hrolf, who used the term "no matter what" does he really believe that, or is there a cost that might be too high.

2 replies to that so far and nobody is actually answering the question, which might tell the story.

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Badger11 Beckenham 06 Jun 19 4.04pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle But what is the answer? And you would stay in the EU even if it came crashing down and ended in a civil war? It's a hypothetical question which can only be answered in hindsight and even then it will be subjective. If we do well outside of the EU some will say ah but if we stayed in we would have done better and vice versa. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 06 Jun 19 4.04pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

But what is the answer?

And you would stay in the EU even if it came crashing down and ended in a civil war?

It's a hypothetical question which can only be answered in hindsight and even then it will be subjective. If we do well outside of the EU some will say ah but if we stayed in we would have done better and vice versa.

One more point

Maine Eagle USA 06 Jun 19 4.11pm
Originally posted by Badger11 And you would stay in the EU even if it came crashing down and ended in a civil war? It's a hypothetical question which can only be answered in hindsight and even then it will be subjective. If we do well outside of the EU some will say ah but if we stayed in we would have done better and vice versa. 3 replies down. No one capable of answering a straight question. Reminds me of listening to James O'Brien's callers. Its as hypothetical as any question ever which is asked about future events, such as "what do you want for dinner tonight?" Its as impossible to answer except in hindsight as "shall we go to the beach today if it might rain?" Its as subjective as asking "do you like mushrooms?" Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Maine Eagle

USA 06 Jun 19 4.11pm

Originally posted by Badger11

And you would stay in the EU even if it came crashing down and ended in a civil war?

It's a hypothetical question which can only be answered in hindsight and even then it will be subjective. If we do well outside of the EU some will say ah but if we stayed in we would have done better and vice versa.

3 replies down.

No one capable of answering a straight question. Reminds me of listening to James O'Brien's callers.

Its as hypothetical as any question ever which is asked about future events, such as "what do you want for dinner tonight?"

Its as impossible to answer except in hindsight as "shall we go to the beach today if it might rain?"

Its as subjective as asking "do you like mushrooms?"

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Hrolf The Ganger 06 Jun 19 4.27pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle So let me get this straight, as we seem to see a lot of this. If being outside of the EU results in a decade long harsh economic downturn, destruction of the car industry and massive job losses, foreclosures and the like. Disclaimer: I am not saying it WILL, I am just asking a question. If all of those things come to pass, you still believe it would have been worth it? That is an impossible question to answer now but I'd rather find out how it will turn out than stay in the EU just because of the possibility that there might be disadvantages resulting in strife. On that basis, (metaphor alert) we would all stay in bed. Trouble is that staying in bed will probably kill you too. The trouble with analyzing the results of leaving is that you don't what the long term prognosis is for remaining in the EU. In reality, neither is likely to be black and white. Right now the latter is not looking too promising. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (06 Jun 2019 4.29pm)

Hrolf The Ganger

06 Jun 19 4.27pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

So let me get this straight, as we seem to see a lot of this.

If being outside of the EU results in a decade long harsh economic downturn, destruction of the car industry and massive job losses, foreclosures and the like.

Disclaimer: I am not saying it WILL, I am just asking a question.

If all of those things come to pass, you still believe it would have been worth it?

That is an impossible question to answer now but I'd rather find out how it will turn out than stay in the EU just because of the possibility that there might be disadvantages resulting in strife.
On that basis, (metaphor alert) we would all stay in bed. Trouble is that staying in bed will probably kill you too.
The trouble with analyzing the results of leaving is that you don't what the long term prognosis is for remaining in the EU. In reality, neither is likely to be black and white.

Right now the latter is not looking too promising.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (06 Jun 2019 4.29pm)

Badger11 Beckenham 06 Jun 19 4.28pm
My American boss once made the comparison between the EU and the US (before the civil war). As his state was on the losing side he wasn't very positive about the EU. And there are some similarities: 1. People in the south believed they had been mislead into what the Union stood for. Yup I recognise this one. 2. The union was dominated by a clique of Northern industrial states who did not take into account the values and culture of the South. In the EU that's Germany and France and their friends. 3. Washington was seen as remote, centralising and interfering in the lives of the states, trying to grab more power. Brussels 4. The Southern states asserted their right to self determination and to leave the union. The Union states resisted all attempts at this up to and including civil war. It's incredible how a group of states 100 years before had agreed to a union and then would not allow anyone to leave. Maybe this is the one lesson that the EU learned from at least there is a process even if it is hampered at every turn. They say history is written by the victors. Most people will say the civil war was about freeing the slaves. That was true on the winning side up to a point but even Lincoln said if keeping the Union meant accepting slavery he would. It was only after the war started that Lincoln decided he had nothing to lose in abolishing slavery. On the losing side the war was always about self determination and most of the people who fought it didn't own slaves (because they were too poor) and many were against slavery anyway. My boss predicted a civil war in the EU some day I don't think it will come to that but if Germany becomes too powerful I can see the EU splitting. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 06 Jun 19 4.28pm

My American boss once made the comparison between the EU and the US (before the civil war). As his state was on the losing side he wasn't very positive about the EU. And there are some similarities:

1. People in the south believed they had been mislead into what the Union stood for.
Yup I recognise this one.
2. The union was dominated by a clique of Northern industrial states who did not take into account the values and culture of the South.
In the EU that's Germany and France and their friends.
3. Washington was seen as remote, centralising and interfering in the lives of the states, trying to grab more power.
Brussels
4. The Southern states asserted their right to self determination and to leave the union. The Union states resisted all attempts at this up to and including civil war.
It's incredible how a group of states 100 years before had agreed to a union and then would not allow anyone to leave. Maybe this is the one lesson that the EU learned from at least there is a process even if it is hampered at every turn.

They say history is written by the victors. Most people will say the civil war was about freeing the slaves. That was true on the winning side up to a point but even Lincoln said if keeping the Union meant accepting slavery he would. It was only after the war started that Lincoln decided he had nothing to lose in abolishing slavery.

On the losing side the war was always about self determination and most of the people who fought it didn't own slaves (because they were too poor) and many were against slavery anyway.

My boss predicted a civil war in the EU some day I don't think it will come to that but if Germany becomes too powerful I can see the EU splitting.

One more point

Stirlingsays 06 Jun 19 4.33pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle But what is the answer? Would if be worth it if gaining independence from the EU ruined the country? No not really. That said, long term, with where the EU is heading I think the opposite is more likely. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jun 2019 4.34pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

06 Jun 19 4.33pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

But what is the answer?

Would if be worth it if gaining independence from the EU ruined the country?

No not really.

That said, long term, with where the EU is heading I think the opposite is more likely.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jun 2019 4.34pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Badger11 Beckenham 06 Jun 19 4.36pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle 3 replies down. No one capable of answering a straight question. Reminds me of listening to James O'Brien's callers. Its as hypothetical as any question ever which is asked about future events, such as "what do you want for dinner tonight?" Its as impossible to answer except in hindsight as "shall we go to the beach today if it might rain?" Its as subjective as asking "do you like mushrooms?" And you haven't answered my question? You cannot guarantee that if we stay in the EU everything will be fine or that when we leave it will be armageddon. Neither can I say the reverse to you. I did not vote yes about economics but about self determination. 50 years from now you may have the pleasure of wearing your "I told you so" T shirt but until then I will stick with my side. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 06 Jun 19 4.36pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

3 replies down.

No one capable of answering a straight question. Reminds me of listening to James O'Brien's callers.

Its as hypothetical as any question ever which is asked about future events, such as "what do you want for dinner tonight?"

Its as impossible to answer except in hindsight as "shall we go to the beach today if it might rain?"

Its as subjective as asking "do you like mushrooms?"

And you haven't answered my question?

You cannot guarantee that if we stay in the EU everything will be fine or that when we leave it will be armageddon. Neither can I say the reverse to you.

I did not vote yes about economics but about self determination.

50 years from now you may have the pleasure of wearing your "I told you so" T shirt but until then I will stick with my side.

One more point

Stirlingsays 06 Jun 19 4.38pm
Originally posted by Badger11 My American boss once made the comparison between the EU and the US (before the civil war). As his state was on the losing side he wasn't very positive about the EU. And there are some similarities: 1. People in the south believed they had been mislead into what the Union stood for. Yup I recognise this one. 2. The union was dominated by a clique of Northern industrial states who did not take into account the values and culture of the South. In the EU that's Germany and France and their friends. 3. Washington was seen as remote, centralising and interfering in the lives of the states, trying to grab more power. Brussels 4. The Southern states asserted their right to self determination and to leave the union. The Union states resisted all attempts at this up to and including civil war. It's incredible how a group of states 100 years before had agreed to a union and then would not allow anyone to leave. Maybe this is the one lesson that the EU learned from at least there is a process even if it is hampered at every turn. They say history is written by the victors. Most people will say the civil war was about freeing the slaves. That was true on the winning side up to a point but even Lincoln said if keeping the Union meant accepting slavery he would. It was only after the war started that Lincoln decided he had nothing to lose in abolishing slavery. On the losing side the war was always about self determination and most of the people who fought it didn't own slaves (because they were too poor) and many were against slavery anyway. My boss predicted a civil war in the EU some day I don't think it will come to that but if Germany becomes too powerful I can see the EU splitting. Yep, good post and I've often thought along these lines. Slavery needed to come to an end, however.....the civil war was a pretty self destructive way of doing it. There are more lies and myths told about that war than truth. The civil war and indeed the war of independence are very interesting explorations for those interested in thinking about self determination and where it starts and ends. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jun 2019 4.39pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

06 Jun 19 4.38pm

Originally posted by Badger11

My American boss once made the comparison between the EU and the US (before the civil war). As his state was on the losing side he wasn't very positive about the EU. And there are some similarities:

On the losing side the war was always about self determination and most of the people who fought it didn't own slaves (because they were too poor) and many were against slavery anyway.

My boss predicted a civil war in the EU some day I don't think it will come to that but if Germany becomes too powerful I can see the EU splitting.

Yep, good post and I've often thought along these lines.

Slavery needed to come to an end, however.....the civil war was a pretty self destructive way of doing it.

There are more lies and myths told about that war than truth.

The civil war and indeed the war of independence are very interesting explorations for those interested in thinking about self determination and where it starts and ends.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jun 2019 4.39pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Maine Eagle USA 06 Jun 19 4.42pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Would if be worth it if gaining independence from the EU ruined the country? No not really. That said, long term, with where the EU is heading I think the opposite is more likely. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jun 2019 4.34pm) Congrats to Stirlingsays, who shows he is capable of answering a straight question. If some are to be believed it will indeed ruin the country. If others are to be believed it will lead to prosperity and success unparalleled in modern times. Time will tell. My gut feeling is being confirmed by things like this: [Link] There will never be a no deal exit. Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Maine Eagle

USA 06 Jun 19 4.42pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Would if be worth it if gaining independence from the EU ruined the country?

No not really.

That said, long term, with where the EU is heading I think the opposite is more likely.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jun 2019 4.34pm)

Congrats to Stirlingsays, who shows he is capable of answering a straight question.

If some are to be believed it will indeed ruin the country.

If others are to be believed it will lead to prosperity and success unparalleled in modern times.

Time will tell.

My gut feeling is being confirmed by things like this:

[Link]

There will never be a no deal exit.

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Maine Eagle USA 06 Jun 19 4.45pm
Originally posted by Badger11 And you haven't answered my question? You cannot guarantee that if we stay in the EU everything will be fine or that when we leave it will be armageddon. Neither can I say the reverse to you. I did not vote yes about economics but about self determination. 50 years from now you may have the pleasure of wearing your "I told you so" T shirt but until then I will stick with my side. I think you might be trying to ask "Do I believe staying in the EU will be on balance worse, than leaving". My answer is no. It wont take 50 years, probably only 5 to really see what has been caused, if we do leave. As for economics versus self determination, with a recession for the ages on, you may need to self determine yourself all the way to the job centre. Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Maine Eagle

USA 06 Jun 19 4.45pm

Originally posted by Badger11

And you haven't answered my question?

You cannot guarantee that if we stay in the EU everything will be fine or that when we leave it will be armageddon. Neither can I say the reverse to you.

I did not vote yes about economics but about self determination.

50 years from now you may have the pleasure of wearing your "I told you so" T shirt but until then I will stick with my side.

I think you might be trying to ask "Do I believe staying in the EU will be on balance worse, than leaving".

My answer is no.

It wont take 50 years, probably only 5 to really see what has been caused, if we do leave.

As for economics versus self determination, with a recession for the ages on, you may need to self determine yourself all the way to the job centre.

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Hrolf The Ganger 06 Jun 19 4.49pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle Congrats to Stirlingsays, who shows he is capable of answering a straight question. If some are to be believed it will indeed ruin the country. If others are to be believed it will lead to prosperity and success unparalleled in modern times. Time will tell. My gut feeling is being confirmed by things like this: [Link] There will never be a no deal exit. The only way to find out is to leave.

Hrolf The Ganger

06 Jun 19 4.49pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Congrats to Stirlingsays, who shows he is capable of answering a straight question.

If some are to be believed it will indeed ruin the country.

If others are to be believed it will lead to prosperity and success unparalleled in modern times.

Time will tell.

My gut feeling is being confirmed by things like this:

[Link]

There will never be a no deal exit.

The only way to find out is to leave.

Stirlingsays 06 Jun 19 5.32pm
Originally posted by Maine Eagle Congrats to Stirlingsays, who shows he is capable of answering a straight question. If some are to be believed it will indeed ruin the country. If others are to be believed it will lead to prosperity and success unparalleled in modern times. Time will tell. My gut feeling is being confirmed by things like this: [Link] There will never be a no deal exit. We shall see I suppose. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

06 Jun 19 5.32pm

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Congrats to Stirlingsays, who shows he is capable of answering a straight question.

If some are to be believed it will indeed ruin the country.

If others are to be believed it will lead to prosperity and success unparalleled in modern times.

Time will tell.

My gut feeling is being confirmed by things like this:

[Link]

There will never be a no deal exit.

We shall see I suppose.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

DANGERCLOSE London 06 Jun 19 6.56pm
[Tweet Link]

DANGERCLOSE

London 06 Jun 19 6.56pm

[Tweet Link]

Maine Eagle USA 06 Jun 19 7.17pm
[Tweet Link] Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Maine Eagle

USA 06 Jun 19 7.17pm

[Tweet Link]

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

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