Being within the EU also went 'very badly' for many people as well. The political direction the EU has taken for the last forty years had no mandate and centralised power always suffers the further away the affected are.

Not everything is financial. You have already said on here that you are prepared to lose money (in taxes) for what you believe in....For many people, this is the same. Democracy won here.

Voters can kick Boris out in five years if they want.....this was their only opportunity with the EU....and it's a salient point. They saw how the establishment had treated the 2016 vote. This was the only opportunity they were going to get.

They knew that the establishment would never give them that opportunity again.

No one is in any doubt that this fight continues.....but one thing is sure, Brexit is happening.

'Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.' (Churchill)

Now you see I broadly agree here, but I really think suggesting that most people who voted leave / voted tory to vote leave again made the conscious calculation that they'd be prepared to lose money as a potential (but not guaranteed) output when doing so is being extremely generous to the general voting population.

They saw a simple message, they bought it. I have no issue with the way the Tories played their campaign, it was the only way to do it – Simple message, simple audience. It plays well, and other parties panicked and overcomplicated things.

I'd argue that most people voted out because they thought they were going to get better off financially, certainly not the other way around. The good thing from my point of view is that they are now wholly at the mercy of someone who has no clear identity – my feeling is he will tack centre but there's always the real risk he won't, and they will then be in serious trouble.

Edited by SW19 CPFC (13 Dec 2019 2.17pm)

Perhaps my last post was somewhat guilty of putting my own anti EU lens and hence triumphalist spin on this. It would have been a reasonably strong factor but by no means the only one.

Yes, I'd say the message mattered....People as a whole were just sick and tired of Brexit and Cummings knew it and Johnson was a strong cheery voice to communicate that.

If we remove the whole Brexit focus most of those who would have voted Tory would have been older. The 'something to lose' mob. They will either have a fair stock of money in assets or earning it.

It's like the US election, the choice was stark...Johnson or Corbyn. While you and others would perhaps have voted red the majority with something set aside would have gone with Johnson.

It could have been said that the same factors were around in 2017 with May and Corbyn did better.....but Corbyn was a fresher figure with a then policy to 'respect Brexit' and Johnson is far more attractive to floating voters than May is.

But the size of this majority has to be seen in the north. A lot of the north voted to leave and they obviously felt disregarded.

I think most people feel that they won't be much better off or worst off....basically they are trusting him.

Now, I think we are going to see Boris play hardball with the EU as I think the EU are going to do the same.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Dec 2019 2.44pm)

Just as yours, individually, does not change anything. Your point?

I agree that parliament was useless as a functioning entity. I don't agree it was rotten.

'The something to lose mob'. Indeed. Perhaps the 'Could definitely afford to lose something mob' in most cases, but there we go.

I am fascinated to see how Boris plays out. I'm not so sure he'll play hardball, at least not in the way hardliners might want, more in the 'let us be more aligned but also out' sense. Softer exit. But as you say we'll know soon enough

Labourites on social media blaming everyone but themselves. Sigh.

Genuine question for you lot - is there anyone in the current Labour Party that you would actually consider voting for if they were leader?

Genuine question for you lot - is there anyone in the current Labour Party that you would actually consider voting for if they were leader?

Brexit should form part of it. Not all of it.
People can choose over one issue, that is the issue.
Your points over Waspi/Jews/Green are complete conjecture
My decision was made on the bigger picture, with objectivity, not one-eyed navel gazing
Not a computer programme no. But my brain, unlike some it would seem, is able to think about and analyse more than one thing concurrently, and more importantly understand that such deliberation and consideration is necessary
Correct. Obviously you failed to read below the line. 95% in fact.
'Stupid beyond redemption' was a borrowed, but wholly appropriate phrase lifted from Matov

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