Good post but this bit in particular stands out. But to just write it off as a bureaucracy out of control does not do credit to what many people at the heart of it actually desire.

I have always said that there is a case to be made for a federalised Europe. But I want it made out in the open and not effectively imposed on us which is what is happening. Never quite understood why the EU, if it is the benign body of optimistic co-operation that many of its adherents claim it to be, requires the trappings of a nation state such as a flag or an anthem or even its own foreign policy and proposed military, let alone a single currency. All of those only make sense if the end game is to effectively create a USE.

And to give credit where it is due, people like Guy Verhofstadt make no bones about this as their ambition/goal for the EU. That I can respect because it is out in the open. Not my cup of tea but at least the man can make his case and people decide accordingly. That I salute as a perfectly legitimate political aspiration

If the EU is only a stepping stone towards an effective USE then it is for the best of all parties concerned that we leave. Lets be honest here, the only reason the EU is kicking up a fuss about us departing is because it wants to protect our market for its goods. The Irish border issue is nothing to do with the actual Irish border but everything to do with trying to ensure that EU producers do not have to compete with others for the British consumers hard earned pound in their weekly shopping.

The EU's remit from day one has been to protect their own producers. Again, I get that. What I struggle with to the point of having to curb my anger is why May and her team seemed so keen to acquiesce because it is treachery and I do not use that word either lightly or without understanding the full conatations of it. HMG's primary duty of care is towards its own citizens and it strikes me that this was not at the forefront of the thinking going on in Westminster up to a month of so ago. May's job was to do her best for the British people. That is it. And she plainly did not, along with Phillip Hammond who it is clear now was the primary mover behind attempting to sell us down the river. It is betrayal on a level that almost beggers belief.

And why we need to leave with No Deal. There simply is not one of the table as things stand and all this posturing going on at the moment is pure window dressing. Actually rather annoyed with Johnson for even sitting down to talk with Macron or Merkal, let alone waste a single minute on the phone to Varadkar because it boils down to a simple reality that until that backstop is dropped, there is nothing else to discuss.

Also makes me wonder what is going on. So far been willing to give Johnson the benefit of the doubt (although not my vote. That still goes, as things stand, solely to the Brexit Party) but am beginning to smell a rat now although I will concede that I am paranoid about our conventional political class to an extent that borders on the unhinged at times.

Let us see.

Edited by Matov (22 Aug 2019 7.51am)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

More a squint than a blink but the meeting yesterday did at least come with a perception of a meeting of equals as opposed to May who appeared nothing more than a subservient employee who could not deliver what her superiors demanded.

It is clear that the EU are banking their hopes on our treacherous political elite managing to block our exit on October 31st with the hope will lead to us not leaving at all but I suspect that Johnson will manage to survive September.

Sticking my neck out here but I suspect that Johnson is going to present Parliament with a stark choice. Either back our departure on October 31st or revoke A50. And I am convinced that Labour MP's, by way of abstaining, will hand him the way forward. Once we leave then UK politics should reset and they are then back in the game.

The issue has to be done and dusted by November 1st. If we are not out by then then we will never leave, at least in this particular bout of politics and the vote on June 23rd will have been betrayed. If we still have our star on that s***ty flag come November 1st then the Tory party is finished. All bets are off about what comes next but the Brexit Party becomes the true opposition then because this fight not only goes on but ramps up. That is what I struggle to understand about those who want us to remain. If we are still in the UK come November 1st then this does not go away. The divisions become not only worse but entrenched to the point of no return.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Surely we must know who comes and goes,
BBC News - Migration: UK cannot end freedom of movement on Brexit day, experts say
[Link]

We've had 3 years to prepare and no system!!

Macron's only appeal to his own voters is his constant anti-English claptrap. Even the French can see through it and most support the yellow vests or Marine Le Penn. Just not so sure they will be able to rig the next election as easily.
French election/voting makes no sense at all and makes the UK look like the world's most democratic country.

Red and Blue Army!

For once the BBC is correct. I have a Dutch friend who has lived here for over 40 years. So if she goes on holiday how will immigration know she has the right to stay here as opposed to a johnny come lately?

She hasn't started the process to register because she felt if we don't leave it's not necessary I suspect many EU nationals feel the same. Mrs May also said freedom of movement would end in 2021 so there was no rush.

Don't get me wrong I want to end freedom of movement but we have to have a practical process in place before we start stopping people at the border.

I suspect that when the government says it ends on 31st Oct they mean in principle. My friend is in her seventies she doesn't need this sort of stress c'mon Boris sort it out.

One more point

Similar with Belgian friend since school - there's an application based on a scanned passport.

I think Boris has really played a blinder so far.

The issues May had is that she didnt believe in Brexit, and didnt have any leverage. To gain leverage, you've got to create problems for the other side. Multiple issues for the EU are now emerging.

Neither side wants to be the party that creates a no deal, but the backstop has resulted in a deal that the UK cant accept so it's currently our only option.

If we extend our membership, then our MEPs will take there seats. The EU now has an option of throwing us out without a deal, or letting us stay and cause havoc.

Boris has also pointed out that the backstop could result in trouble returning to northern island as a result of disgruntled nationalist. Something the EU has been ignoring so far, and counters their argument against a hard boarder.

The great withdrawal bill says will remain aligned to EU law until we change our laws or they change their law.

The best outcome in the case of a no deal is a quick agreement that we carry on as normal with aligned laws. This will minimise disruption in the short term, however the EU and the UK will probably need to consult if they want to make changes to future laws. That will put the UK in a much better position for influanci ng EU laws than if it were a member. The EU will have an influence over some UK laws by the same token, but the laws it will have influenced over will be ones they already have total control over.

Next stages I'd imagine are that we will suggest an approach to the uk boarder problem in about 28 days which is likely to be very favourable to the UK and possibly ireland but not the rest of the EU, and that will give the EU no time to negotiate it before the end of October meaning they have to accept it, or kick us out with a no deal.

I suspect you are quite right but I am unhinged about this at the moment so tend to think the worst.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

From a no deal Brexit for sure because it wasn't what people voted for and it would do our country great harm.

No government should ever do anything that they know will harm the country.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

What a load of tosh.

They separated out those who are 100% for or against and kept the main parties, Tory and Labour, who have a division of views in their ranks out.

The BBC have nothing to apologise for and to promote this story as "Fake News" is fake itself.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.