Did you vote in the EU Referendum Yes or No?

Pro USA & Israel

Answered. Missed earlier in the flurry of other responses and the fact that, believe it or not, I have many other things to do.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

of course..............

Pro USA & Israel

This discussion was getting quite sensible and was conducted in fairly good humour for a while.

Now it's gone back to a slagging match.

All this shows is that people who are strongly on the remain side realised that have been massively out manoeuvred by Boris.

Anyone saying its undemocratic will be immediately shut down by the argument that trying to stop the UK leaving is also undemocratic. Creating another major problem for Corbyn as its decided the campaign socialist in momentum who want to remain from Labour's northern and welsh heartland. The dilemma for Corbyn is the more he rants and raves about this, then the more he splits his core vote.

Labour are really lacking any political tallent at the moment. They are showing real political naivety and now the Tories have a strong leader they will run rings around them.

And we did so against a background of 'experts' assuring us that just in the event of a leave vote there would be a recession and massive job losses.

And we all know how those predictions went.

To be honest, the real mistake that our political class, from all sides of the debate made in the main was assuming that the tradtional 'its the economy stupid' mantra would play out with regards to the vote on June 23rd. In their defence, it is usually the correct stance to take but this leave or remain issue is far more about identity than anybody realised. Camerons huge mistake, and again you can understand the rationale behind it, was that the Project Fear tactic used in Scotland would translate into England.

Willing to put my hands up and concede that I never realised how many people took that 'European citizenship' nonsense seriously given it always felt ludicrous to me but perhaps that is the problem now. We might all see a bunch of w***ers dancing in the road and generally being utter c***s but for them that has become a huge part of how they define themselves and we have, or desperately want, to take that away from them.

This all goes beyond pounds, shilling and pence. And it always did, with the emotions driving both sides coming from a lot deeper, and perhaps darker, part of us all that we struggle to be honest about.

Also why we are at such a dangerous crossroads in our history. When such core issues as how we define ourselves are at stake then it can unleash collective demons that serve none of us well.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Yes it does...pigs and troughs spring to mind

Jeez, its like talking to porridge!

As those opposing no deal are also thinking long term the difference is who is actually right.

Everyone would put up with some short term pain if it was worth it in the end. I don't much care if I cannot get fresh tomatoes in January next year.

I believe we would be better off remaining a member of the EU and helping to shape it's direction whilst benefiting from being a member, it's accepted common standards and position in the world. If though we are to come out then we need to ensure that we do so with the least possible pain and to do so without first organising a mutually agreed arrangement makes no sense. Playing "who blinks first" is no way to run a government.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

There's guesswork by amateurs.

Then there's analysis by professionals, whose full time job it is to try to understand these things.

I don't think anyone could argue that the overwhelming opinion of the professionals is not in favour of us leaving the EU in this way, or indeed at all.

If Remain had "won" (I don't think anyone has won in this debacle) then you can be quite sure that the Farages and Rees Moggs would still be pushing. They even said so at the time. However as there would have been no need for an "Article 50" or long drawn out negotiations over the terms of exit, things would be very different

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

I have edited your quote to make it more accurate.

Do you ever watch the budget as the first part of the Chancellor's budget speech is always to point out how and why the Office of Budget Responsibilities got it wrong last year and then to present their "guesses" for the forthcoming year which no doubt he will be apologising for in the next budget.

Your so called professionals have no more idea than the rest of us.

It wasn't that long ago that the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that if the population voted in favour of Brexit the economy would immediately collapse.

It also wasn't that long ago that the Governor of the Bank of England who was one of the chief portrayers of Brexit doom and gloom changed his mind to say that it may well not be that bad