You are quite right. We do as a nation believe in democracy.

For many of us that democracy is vested solely in Parliament and we reject the whole idea of referendums playing any kind of role in complex decisions.

For us Parliament made a mistake in agreeing to hold a referendum which was intended to quieten the Eurosceptics for ever, which then went horribly wrong.

Having made that mistake they then failed to correct it.

I don't want a country which is ruled by populist sentiment. I want a country which is ruled by the calm heads of our elected representatives, acting together in our best interests, and beyond the reach of newspaper and social media influences.

So Brexit is a failure of our democracy and not a triumph of it. It marks a very dangerous turn in how we govern ourselves which will, in my opinion, be seen to have been a very big mistake in the fullness of time.

You are quite right. We do as a nation believe in democracy.

For many of us that democracy is vested solely in Parliament and we reject the whole idea of referendums playing any kind of role in complex decisions.

For us Parliament made a mistake in agreeing to hold a referendum which was intended to quieten the Eurosceptics for ever, which then went horribly wrong.

Having made that mistake they then failed to correct it.

I don't want a country which is ruled by populist sentiment. I want a country which is ruled by the calm heads of our elected representatives, acting together in our best interests, and beyond the reach of newspaper and social media influences.

So Brexit is a failure of our democracy and not a triumph of it. It marks a very dangerous turn in how we govern ourselves which will, in my opinion, be seen to have been a very big mistake in the fullness of time.
[/quote

It might be a failure of your democracy but certainly not mine and so it appears the majority of the Country.

I’m sorry but I also don’t get your trust in our politicians to do the right thing. They don’t have infinite wisdom, in fact some would and do fail miserably outside their political lives so why should they have more say than the people they represent? By what you are saying, if an entire constituency wanted black doors but their politician wanted white doors, then white doors would prevail. That cannot be right.

As for calm heads, can you honestly say that the way politicians go about their business is in any way calm? I have never seen anything so disgraceful as the antics of them in the Commons. If that was the boardroom of a top 100 company, the chairman would throw the lot of them out. There is no rational debate, just party posturing. They act like spoilt children.

Our political system is pretty much broken which has been highlighted by recent events and as for trusting our politicians I wouldn’t let one walk my dog let alone rule the country, but unfortunately that is our system and for the time being we are stuck with it.

I think we should have a referendum on changing our political system.

Now I appreciate you operate on a completely different intellectual level to the rest of us mere mortals, but....

I don't believe that to be true at all and I fully realise that my views aren't shared by many, if any, here. I just view and value things differently and have long had the courage of my convictions when faced with overwhelming opposition. I learned that when I was a schoolboy and have ultimately been proved right many times.

You believe in Parliament and MP’s making a decision - fair enough. However what the referendum did was show that

A. There was enough of a level of support that it shouldn’t be ignored.

Obviously but completely beside the point. The argument is not whether people supported it or not. It is why they did and whether they had sufficient information to be able to reach an informed decision. It is whether highly complex and technical issues such as this, involving not just matters of national pride but economic, social and security issues fundamental to the futures not just of ourselves but of the coming generations, ought to be decided by a plebiscite.

B. Removed political boundaries. Everyone had the right to vote and know their vote counted.

True but not germane to the point above.

If the MP’s decide everything, then all bar about 60 constituencies have no realistic say in what happens.

Untrue. MPs represent ALL of their constituents and not just those who vote for them. So long as they are given a free vote and allowed to vote according to their consciences having heard all the arguments then an informed decision will be taken.

Something the remainers just can't accept. They feel their views should prevail over the democratic decision.
So goodbye to Gina Miller, John Bercow and their ilk.
Try to accept that it is over.

There is a reason we rarely hold referenda.

One person one vote does not reflect the relative importance to individuals of the vote. In this case people with little to gain voted - marginally- against the interests of those with a huge amount to lose.

A simple majority does not indicate the outcome was correct.

There is a reason we rarely hold referenda.

because you might not get the result you wanted perhaps?

One person one vote does not reflect the relative importance to individuals of the vote. In this case people with little to gain voted - marginally- against the interests of those with a huge amount to lose.

wow and I thought all votes were equal, but apparently not

A simple majority does not indicate the outcome was correct.

It might be a failure of your democracy but certainly not mine and so it appears the majority of the Country.

I’m sorry but I also don’t get your trust in our politicians to do the right thing. They don’t have infinite wisdom, in fact some would and do fail miserably outside their political lives so why should they have more say than the people they represent? By what you are saying, if an entire constituency wanted black doors but their politician wanted white doors, then white doors would prevail. That cannot be right.

Any MP who did anything quite that stupid would not survive for long. However taking unpopular decisions that they consider in their constituents best interests need to be explained. People tend to admire people of principle.

As for calm heads, can you honestly say that the way politicians go about their business is in any way calm? I have never seen anything so disgraceful as the antics of them in the Commons. If that was the boardroom of a top 100 company, the chairman would throw the lot of them out. There is no rational debate, just party posturing. They act like spoilt children.

That's just the froth. It's all pantomime. Nevertheless, it can expose hypocrisy and test the strength of arguments. The real work though is done in committee and behind the scenes.

Our political system is pretty much broken which has been highlighted by recent events and as for trusting our politicians I wouldn’t let one walk my dog let alone rule the country, but unfortunately that is our system and for the time being we are stuck with it.

It's certainly under threat from the attempts to neuter MPs and treat them as lobby sheep. Who we send to Parliament as our representatives is OUR responsibility. Don't like yours? Do something about it! Parliament in the last 6 months actually showed it has some integrity even though in the end Corbyn's weakness failed to deliver the knockout blow that was available.

I think we should have a referendum on changing our political system.

I cannot think of anything more likely to produce a disaster.

Since you ask, yes. Both. Immediately after the Brexit vote my job with a US company was moved to Ireland.

My concerns, however, relate more to the opportunities for my children who to date have benefited from the EU to a significant degree.

Any MP who did anything quite that stupid would not survive for long. However taking unpopular decisions that they consider in their constituents best interests need to be explained. People tend to admire people of principle.

Since you ask, yes. Both. Immediately after the Brexit vote my job with a US company was moved to Ireland.

My concerns, however, relate more to the opportunities for my children who to date have benefited from the EU to a significant degree.