The primary benefit is simply not being in the EU. Period. It is a failing organisation. The Euro is an absolute disaster that has bought more misery and destitution to the Continent than anything else ever inflicted on it during peacetime. Huge debts, massive unemployment (especially amongst the young) and generally an organisation that offers the last refuge for a political class increasingly out of touch with the realities of the modern world especially in light of increasing globalisation.

Oddly enough I think that a truly federal EU might actually offer something. That there is a case to be made for it but I want it out in the open. In plain sight.

As it is though, all it is at the moment is this soft-focus virtue signalling comfort blanket for soc.libs. I know that clip from QT where the Remainer asks where the people in Pret who make her coffee will come from is a little overdone now but ultimately that is what concerns Remainers. They like having their gardens tended to by Romanians, whilst Poles make their coffee and Albanians, who they are more than happy to turn a blind eye to even being in the country, wash their cars. Makes them feel special. Far more grateful than their own fellow countrymen who are unpleasant and crass.

Our class struggle, writ large with a 21st century spin. That is Brexit now. And always was.

Edited by Matov (12 Sep 2019 1.23pm)

What don't you understand about Politicians having a duty to react to events if, in their judgement, they are sufficiently important to have to change a previously stated position.

The 48% who "lost" are not the only ones whose interests matter, alongside the 52% who "won". (Many on both sides not all sharing exactly the same level of commitment to the causes. It was a very simple question that was asked.) There are those who decided not to vote but even more importantly there are the millions of under 18 year olds who couldn't vote but whose lives will be more impacted than any of us. MPs have to take all of these things into consideration.

The truth is that, having made their promises, and despite many of them disagreeing with the decision, they have striven to find a way to leave that doesn't harm the UK more than is necessary. So far it hasn't been possible to find enough support for the negotiated arrangement to get Parliamentary approval. No-one lied. They just did their job. It's all very unfortunate but the whole country is split almost down the middle over this. Parliament clearly has a majority against leaving without a proper agreement in place, and some now argue that so much time has elapsed that we ought to check again what the people as a whole now think before making any steps that we might later regret. I disagree with them as I think Parliament alone should make these decisions.

explain to me what is the point in voting for any MP?

I am one of them as if we leave the EU I will have to buy an International Driving Licence and that will cost me £5.50

Although they’re not betting on the collapse of their own economy, of course. They’re also not responsible for engineering said collapse.

Yeah some of that is true but I think really when you say 'EU' you really mean 'The world', 'Capitalism'. Those issues are in no way exclusive to countries within the European Union. Thanks to globalisation there's no certainty that you'd be rid of them without it. In fact it's almost impossible to imagine it would be.

Also you're treating the EU as a bloc when you talk about high unemployment, but the UK has the lowest unemployment rate for years (albeit not true due to gig employment but still). And it's in the EU.

Menial employment is a real issue though with no immigration, but that won't change really when we're out unless they adopt the points system, which I support. It'll just be non-EU nationalities that take up the slack.

What failure is that?

We won the Referendum and no one has screwed up this process except Remainers.

That is essentially the "women who ride horses live longer argument"

Thwarted is more my take. And for what end? Brexit is not about money. The biggest mistake that both sides made before the election. It is all about identity and essentially boils down, with notable exceptions of both side, about the contradictions posed to the entire world about globalisation.

This is all about the wording on passports. European citizenship and what that entails.

Britain is perhaps the most flexible economy in the current European Union. One of the prime reasons why the Germans do not want us to leave is because we help them maintain a modicum of commercial sense when it comes to how the EU legislates. We leave with No Deal and we can adapt. Merkel was only yesterday warning of the dangers of a UK setting up as a European 'Singapore'. She knows that the UK is more than capable of making a huge financial success of No Deal with Europe the big loser. Hence why they want to effectively keep us captive. They need our markets and more importantly, need us tied into their wider project.

Prior to the referendum Project Fear should have breezed it for Remain. All political logic up until that moment had focused on the maxim 'its the economy stupid'. But it did not. And not only did it fail but it was proved almost entirely hysteria.

And that is what is driving the issues now. Both Remainers and Leavers are driven by identity. About how they see themselves. About how they envisage the future. That is why this is all so damaging. If it was simply down to pounds, shillings and pence then we would not be at each others throats. Hence why all the insults, especially from the Remain camp. Look at the disdain, the contempt. All from the Culture Wars handbooks. All the buzz words.

Brexit is about the future of the UK and by default, by globalisation. Of how it is defined. Always makes me smile when we see the term 'populist' bandied about like an insult. When did 'popular', especially in terms of how democracy works, become a bad thing?

Remain is primarily driven by nothing more than an excessive sense of self-worth. Snobbery really.

Edited by Matov (12 Sep 2019 1.00pm)