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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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Invalid user 2019 Flag 25 Sep 19 3.36am

The almost inevitable outcome is still an uninspiring deal that nobody is particularly keen on. All parties will gravitate towards it in sufficient numbers out of desperation to turn the page.

 

tome Flag Inner Tantalus Time. 25 Sep 19 5.11am

Originally posted by Matov

What logic? How do you define 'semi-intellectual' people? You berated me for being unreasonable and I conceded the point?

What does intellect have to do with the reality that Remain was an option in the first referendum and it lost. So therefore if you now want the decision from that first one to be more specific, were is the logic in offering the losing option again?

We leave and then hold a referendum on rejoining, it is a fresh question being asked but all a second referendum is about is clarifying what type of leave people might want.

If you want it re-run with the same question then fair enough but you don't.

I think the reasoning is that as much as the first referendum could be seen as 'status quo' versus 'change', it could also be seen as 'reality' versus 'myth'.

Because there was no specificity to what leave would look like, it was campaigned on with vagueness and pomp, all about patriotism and control without spelling out what any of that actually meant.

It therefore seems fair to arrive at a choice where both scenarios are spelt out so that people can make a choice that's actually informed.

 


A one and a two...

sickboy Flag Deal or Croydon 25 Sep 19 6.55am

Originally posted by becky

Not semantics at all:

Black's Law Dictionary defines unlawful as "not authorized by law, illegal." Illegal is defined as "forbidden by law, unlawful"

Since there is nothing on the statute books about prorogation, or what may be considered an acceptable period of prorogation, it cannot possibly be illegal.

Since what Boris has done has not broken any Law, and given that HM the Queen gave her assent to his actions,and HM the Queen being above the Law as she IS the Law, one actually wonders whether the Supreme Court's judgement in this matter is enforceable.


As always, eloquently put.

 

chris123 Flag hove actually 25 Sep 19 7.32am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Here, here.

Since we have unelected judges deciding over our actual PM as to when parliament can be prorogued and second guessing his motives....something I find extremely iffy and for me something beyond their remit. I suppose we have to move on.....But personally I think this has to come with consequences.

We now have an Attorney General and Queen willing to be regarded as idiots by the supreme court.

We literally have a zombie Queen.....what's the point when judges get to decide for her what she already has the power to approve or reject.

The parliament needs to be prorogued for the government to prepare its Queen Speech anyway and so let these clowns sit and waffle away until Johnson....apparently seeks the approval of....I don't know....what more than the Queen now? Does he have to ask the lawyers as well now?

It's a joke.

Whichever way they try to paint it the Queen has been made an embarrassment of.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Sep 2019 12.28am)

You can add three more - the Lord Chief Justice of
England and Wales, the Master of the Rolls and the President of the Queen’s Bench Division.

 

Matov Flag 25 Sep 19 7.55am

Originally posted by tome

I think the reasoning is that as much as the first referendum could be seen as 'status quo' versus 'change', it could also be seen as 'reality' versus 'myth'.

Because there was no specificity to what leave would look like, it was campaigned on with vagueness and pomp, all about patriotism and control without spelling out what any of that actually meant.

It therefore seems fair to arrive at a choice where both scenarios are spelt out so that people can make a choice that's actually informed.

Fair? LOL.

Why does a vote have to be informed? What is wrong with tossing a coin? Or making a choice based on what football team a candidate supports? Or a whole host of other factors?

Do you not think it is a dangerous road to go down when people want to decide, and especially in the case of Brexit almost exclusively those who supported the losing side, when a vote is informed or not? My reasons for voting Leave are my reasons. Why should those even be questioned?

Or should voting be qualified? Perhaps by a persons educational achievements? Or the amount of property they own?

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Spiderman Flag Horsham 25 Sep 19 8.06am


[Link]

Excellent article (await the "it's the Mail" especially the description of the main protaganists. Also interesting that Miller has backers from abroad....wonder who that can be?

 

Spiderman Flag Horsham 25 Sep 19 8.08am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

The problem in trying to have a "reasoned debate" with you is that no amount of reason seems to penetrate your fixed position. No matter when areas of agreement can be offered, or compromises suggested nothing changes. The post above could have been written 100 pages ago, minus the new target, the Judiciary.

I know my position also remains firm but mine is based on verifiable facts some of which have now been unanimously confirmed by the highest Court in the land.

I, nor I believe does anyone else, think those who hold your position are "w***ers" of the highest order". I just think you are mistaken about the way our democracy works and that your attitudes and frustrations all flow from that.

Unfortunately Johnson is reinforcing those attitudes, entirely for his own reasons, in his efforts to position this as "Boris and the Brexiteers defending the people against the elite", when the truth is that it's absolutely the very opposite. This is Parliament and the law defending the people against an elite.

The hard line Brexiteers are no more "the people" than Corbyn's hard liners are. Most of the 52% wouldn't have come from that group but were sucked in to that camp for a variety of reasons. Therefore to make the claims that he does, and you repeat, that the vote of the majority being betrayed is simply untrue.

Pot and kettle

 

Spiderman Flag Horsham 25 Sep 19 8.10am

Originally posted by DanH

Against what, exactly?

Bercow for starters

 

DanH Flag SW2 25 Sep 19 8.12am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The law is not meant to be involved in political decisions.

This is unprecedenced.

So you are literally advocating for parliament to be above the law?

 

Stirlingsays Flag 25 Sep 19 8.36am

Originally posted by DanH

So you are literally advocating for parliament to be above the law?

No, it's a balance. The only person above the law is the Monarch.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 25 Sep 19 8.39am

Originally posted by chris123

You can add three more - the Lord Chief Justice of
England and Wales, the Master of the Rolls and the President of the Queen’s Bench Division.

Her Majesty walked right into this didn't she?

Can she sack Johnson?

She is involved now and its her own fault.

A written constitution would hopefully end the monarch's role in other than PR matters.

 

Stirlingsays Flag 25 Sep 19 8.47am

Originally posted by steeleye20

Her Majesty walked right into this didn't she?

Can she sack Johnson?

She is involved now and its her own fault.

A written constitution would hopefully end the monarch's role in other than PR matters.

If the monarch's role is reduced to purely PR then that will be the gradual end of it.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

W12 25 Sep 19 8.55am

Originally posted by steeleye20

Her Majesty walked right into this didn't she?

Can she sack Johnson?

She is involved now and its her own fault.

A written constitution would hopefully end the monarch's role in other than PR matters.


Written by who? Tony Blair?


Edited by W12 (25 Sep 2019 8.55am)

 

Teddy Eagle Flag 25 Sep 19 9.01am

Originally posted by DanH

So you are literally advocating for parliament to be above the law?

Well the Queen is hence the original question about sovereignty. To repeat - the Supreme Court has only existed for 10 years. As I understand it the decision would have rested with the HoL prior to then. Did that mean parliament was previously “above the law”?

 

EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 25 Sep 19 9.07am

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle


So after yesterday’s decision where does sovereign power lie in the UK? Is it in parliament or the Supreme Court?

I thought we’d given it to Brussels.

 

Midlands Eagle Flag 25 Sep 19 9.13am

Originally posted by Spiderman


[Link]

Excellent article (await the "it's the Mail" especially the description of the main protaganists. Also interesting that Miller has backers from abroad....wonder who that can be?

Excellent article whether it's in the Daily Mail or not.

I did wonder yesterday if the law case was nothing to do with Brexit why the gang of looney remainers were gathered together on the steps of the court doing their victory dance

 

Stirlingsays Flag 25 Sep 19 9.14am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I thought we’d given it to Brussels.

Depends on the law.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Invalid user 2019 Flag 25 Sep 19 9.15am

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 27% (-2)
LAB: 27% (-)
LDEM: 20% (-1)
BREX: 17% (+4)

via @ComRes, 24 Sep
Chgs. w/ 19 Sep

 

becky Flag over the moon 25 Sep 19 9.31am

Originally posted by DanH

So you are literally advocating for parliament to be above the law?

Parliament, as the makers of Law is above the Law, except when it breaks the Law that it has made.

Which it hasn't in this case, as there is no Law about prorogation and how long is reasonable.

 


A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

Mapletree Flag Croydon 25 Sep 19 9.47am

Originally posted by becky

Parliament, as the makers of Law is above the Law, except when it breaks the Law that it has made.

Which it hasn't in this case, as there is no Law about prorogation and how long is reasonable.

So the 11 most senior Judges in the land erred in Law?

 

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