The thing is, I agree with a lot of the diagnosis on this thread.

Our politics is broken, evidently. It is set up to benefit the most opportunistic, Macchiavellian and amoral figures, who care for democracy and the electorate only when it suits them.

The media aids this, frequently sensationalising rather than providing nuance and rigorous coverage. That it is the least trusted national media in Europe is unsurprising.

Clearly, to my mind, what we need to do is collectively build institutions that allow broader, mass participatory forms of politics, and promote politicians from a range of backgrounds who have convictions, and aren't just led by their egos.

Labour's policy on Brexit has been written off by the media, who think the population are too stupid to understand anything longer than one line. Yet it was voted on, ratified and amended by delegates elected by hundreds of thousands of party members. At its heart, it pledges that any decision MUST be democratically ratified by the population, both in an election and in another referendum. But similarly, it is looking for a compromise while others (Johnson and co.) are desperately trying to simplify, antagonise and circumvent.

Brexit needs to be done. Brexit won't get done if either side tries to take over the whole thing - either No Dealers or Remainers. So again, to my mind as a relatively neutral observer on the issue, the only option that seems plausible if you want to leave is the agreement voted on at Labour conference.

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

Not sure having Tommy Robinson in parliament is a good idea IMHO.

Ratified? Remain lost. No ifs, no buts. It failed. Was rejected.

Can you tell me in what way, shape or form putting Remain on a second referendum is 'democractic'? Types of Leave, then perhaps (and I write that through gritted teeth) but having 'Remain' again? Makes no logical sense.

An election with parties standing on clear manifesto promises to Revoke A50, that I get. No issues at all. Despise them for it, would rather smash myself in the face with a hammer than vote for it but it is a valid political ambition to promote and then subject yourself slings and arrows of the democractic process on.

But another referendum with Remain on the paper when the result of the first one has not been implemented, that has ZERO democractic legitimacy. Absolutely nothing.

You could perhaps argue that if you have a clear manifesto promise in an election prior to this second referendum being held then you might just be able to still use the 'D' word to describe yourself but let us be clear. The plan is to foist another referendum on us without a GE first. That is what all this wrangling is about.

If they wanted a GE we would be in the middle of the campaign now. In fact we should be, given all the conventions around how our democracy is meant to work. We have a Zombie Government and a Zombie Parliament. It should be submitting itself to the British people today for a chance to resolve that awful situation. But it is not. And that is because of Remain Retards not wanting to actually submit this second referendum nonsense to the stress test of a GE.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

JC is an experienced politician with a long career and it has certainly shown in his performance.

He has clearly mounted an effective opposition, reducing the governments ability to operate, and in reaching out to other parties.

In fact he seems to be in control of the whole thing.

All the tories can do is their usual pointless abuse.

Like I say I am pretty ambivalent about whether we leave or not, but the referendum won by 52% to 48%. Trying to depict that as some kind of comprehensive victory is ludicrous, particularly given that it was the second referendum this country has had on EU membership.

We should be having an election, and I think Labour have lacked clarity on this, but I think they are paranoid that Johnson has executive power to alter the date of it after it's been voted on. If I'm right on that, it's fairly simple: Johnson has to apply for an extension, call an election, then if he wins a mandate for No Deal, it should be implemented.

If he tries to bring it about on the sly, when it's overwhelmingly unpopular with the public, we may as well not live in a democracy.

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

Amazing.

1. Party delegates voted to support his position on Brexit.

2. The NHS is breaking at the seams

Prisons are being overrun

We are building nuclear facilities in our country that have had multiple safety warnings

Disabled people have had their benefits cut by 40% in a decade

We are having ever increasingly more extreme weather

Levels of in-work poverty are at a level not seen since the Victorian era

We are increasing our debt by billions a year because we are subsidising failing private companies who are in charge of our public services.

And you say Brexit is the only major issue?

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

Forgot the obvious one - because he would let in millions more immigrants, reduce the voting age and turn a blind eye to mass vote rigging. There would never be another conservative or right leaning party elected again, the welfare state would collapse in on itself and Britain would default on all it's loans. Cue mass civil unrest, a fracturing of society along existing political, religious and ethnic/racial fault lines and a complete breakdown of the rule of law leading to a civil war or a dictatorship led by whoever comes out on top.

Well played sir...the Hyperbole on all sides is getting tiresome. in a nutshell:

- the majority voted for LEAVE
- it will mean 3years or so of turbulence (no more than has already been the case due to ridiculous obfuscation)
- things will settle down after that and we can get on with doing our own thing

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

George Osborne who was one of the architects of Project Fear said that if we voted to leave the EU the results would be so devastating that he would have to hold an emergency budget. Hardly a "mild economic forecast"

What does that actually look like though? As in he wants to see more people blown up and shot?

If we’re taking personalities into account, I think 99% of politicians on all sides are entirely f***ed.