Well yes, and no. Norway isn't an EU member, but it is a member of the EEA and EFTA etc. Which is what I think an exit will result in for the UK. We'll 'pick and choose' agreements to belong to.

These agreements, are very much in line with EU membership (the EEA allows for Free Movement of people, goods etc). I see any exit ending up with the UK being part of the EEA and EFTA, which I think will disappoint a lot of people long term.

Essentially we'll be EU by the back door. It'll be sold as a victory for the people, and result in 'more of the same'. Which will anger me somewhat....

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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Wonder no more, Kermit! There is data for that:

EU:CHE:NOR&ifdim=region&tstart=130896000000&tend=1393200000000&hl=en_US&dl=en_US&ind=false" target="_blank">[Link]

I've indicated where countries are not in the EU, as you seem to think it is the be-all and end-all of trade, life and liberty.

The UK grew:
- at about the same pace as Canada (not in the EU)
- slower than Japan (not in the EU) until their "lost decade" in the 90s
- slower than the US (not in the EU)
- pretty much the same as France and Germany (these two are in the EU)
- considerably less than poor Norway (not EU) and destitute Switzerland (not EU)

You'd need some hard evidence to suggest we would have been a "special case" with respect to these other countries, and wouldn't have been on the same trajectory as them through the decades.

What is very evident is that you mix up this "EU trade" thing with the single market, from which (among others outside the EU) Switzerland and Norway do extremely well out of. They pay to trade in? OK! Maybe we should have a similar negotiation then, so long as it remains in our financial interests to do so. I imagine that would be part of the Article 50 negotiation (which I sincerely hope "cast-iron deal-of-the-century" Dave will have no part in)

Incidentally, it is extremely disingenuous to suggest a "leave" in the 1975 referendum (of a trading bloc) is in any way equivalent to a "leave" in the 2016 referendum (of the only global trading bloc out of 17 demanding political union in order to be a member).

I like this, I'm stealing that for my next heated political debate.

Here's an unknown: what will the EU do with us if we vote to stay in? We'll be in their back pocket for years to come is my guess. I don't know for a fact though, I admit.

Your earlier post today said....

Brexit will not weave the magic you hope for but will make us economically poorer.

So you've done a U turn.... earlier "brexit" or leaving was going to make us economically poorer.... now you're agreeing with Dan and saying we are going into the unknown.

Make your mind up.... mine and Nigel Lawson's mind is clear.

We have everything to gain by voting out.

No more EU interference on us trying to establish a trading rapport with China and India where the potential is massive compared to the EU.

One of my concerns is that, much like the PR debacle, we'll get this vote, IN will narrowly squeak it, and that will be used as conclusive proof that we are all fiercely pro_EU and therefore have no right to complain about anything.

What about the reverse of the Sturgeon situation? She's said she'll push for another independent Scotland vote if we vote OUT and they vote IN so they are forced to leave. Could we kick them out if we narrowly vote OUT but their votes push the UK into an IN vote?

On the plus side, at least MEP's are elected through proportional representation.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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Nice try.

We are going into the unknown we all agree on that. I believe we will be worse off. Some agree, some don't. The ones that don't have jacksh*t to offer anything concrete that will be better off. There's a reason for that. No evidence. No definite proposed trade deals in place to cover any losses incurred on leaving. No talk about the safety of employment and the firms here who need the EU.

For those that want to stay at least we have the trade figures, economic clout and other benefits associated with being in the EU at hand.

You want to risk that. I don't. I want Britain as strong as it can be. Going backwards isn't going to help.

No U-turn Hoof. Never mind.

also, you called yourself a moderate earlier. What was that all about?

Edited by Kermit8 (24 Feb 2016 5.30pm)

Big chest and massive boobs

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There's going to be details that came to their decision. People migrating here and willing to work for lower wages the 1st. Apart from the Towie crowd in Marbella I doubt many Brits going to live on the continent flock to 1 particular town or postcode because that's where British are pitching up.

You also have people who never have any intention to live abroad for longer than 2 weeks and want to keep infrastructure at a level they want for them and their family and those who like the idea of moving around for a few years here and there. Both those 2 questions you linked were probably asked to everyone which highlights the contradiction but you also get my stereotype.

COYP

Apparently the same questions were asked to all respondents.

Not histrionic in the slightest. If you are trying to skewer those in support of leaving for "what the future will hold", expect it right back at you. You will have to work within the confines of a declining outmoded trade bloc, however.

"..the same here in our Parliament" -- so that's a candid confession that where a huge number of laws passed and handed down to us is not "ours". Good. We have 8.5% influence in the EUparl, which counts for FA given QVM. 300 EU rulings per day generated by an unelected commission and rubber-stamped by the EUparl, each of those 300 taking more power to Brussels.

"Economic clout...,"
I demonstrated this not to be the case. You clearly didn't look at the data. No matter. Horse, water.

"peace...,"
Yeah, who needed NATO when we have Van Rompuy. Give me a break - tell me you don't believe that, really??

"easy travel...,"
I've traveled extensively both in Europe and the rest of the world (you know, that place with 160+ countries outside the EU?). You're telling me the EU facilitated my visa-on-arrival in Australia? In Cambodia? Are those cheap flights all down to the EU too, and nothing to do with supply, demand and the rise of cheap low-cost carriers(despite EUcom efforts with the Emissions Trading Scheme)? Can the Swiss & Norwegians get NHS cover here? In other words, rubbish.

"cleaner rivers and seas, etc...." The seas are certainly cleaner, as our fish-stocks (60% of "EU" waters) have been decimated under the Common Fisheries Policy, and our fishing industry has declined massively. And as for rivers, I prefer them dredged (as they have been done in antiquity) and not flooding over the Somerset Levels & Cockermouth. We have the EU “Saving wetland habitats: more money for key sites” directive to thank for that.

Finally, as for "solving our social ills" - as per the majority of the other 160+ countries in the world, I would like our ELECTORATE to vote in the government to which we hold accountable to solve these "ills". If they don't do a good job, we boot them out and elect another. Why is this concept so hard for you people to understand?