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Hrolf The Ganger 22 Feb 16 4.05pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I'm not sure the problem would be helped by reducing benefits, but raising the minimum wage significantly would make some of these jobs more viable for those who are unemployed and in a position where they can't afford to take a job. Problem has been that whilst benefits are linked to inflation, wages aren't. Meaning that the influx of migrant workers has essentially made x number of jobs unworkable for many people who have ties here (such as those who have a family). Where I live, the big contributor to welfare cost is housing benefit, because the cost of renting is through the room expensive. There is no real way someone on minimum wage could afford to rent a one bedroom flat each month, let alone a family home (easily going to set you back 1k a month after tax). Even with two working adults that's still a serious amount of money to find each month, before you get to bills and utilities. Would that not have a negative effect on smaller local business?
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Hrolf The Ganger

22 Feb 16 4.05pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I'm not sure the problem would be helped by reducing benefits, but raising the minimum wage significantly would make some of these jobs more viable for those who are unemployed and in a position where they can't afford to take a job. Problem has been that whilst benefits are linked to inflation, wages aren't. Meaning that the influx of migrant workers has essentially made x number of jobs unworkable for many people who have ties here (such as those who have a family).

Where I live, the big contributor to welfare cost is housing benefit, because the cost of renting is through the room expensive. There is no real way someone on minimum wage could afford to rent a one bedroom flat each month, let alone a family home (easily going to set you back 1k a month after tax). Even with two working adults that's still a serious amount of money to find each month, before you get to bills and utilities.

Would that not have a negative effect on smaller local business?

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Kermit8 Hevon 22 Feb 16 4.09pm
Originally posted by We are goin up! I find it baffling that a leftie is suddenly quoting big business and currency fluctuations as reasons for staying in. Where were these considerations at the General Election? Do you not think immigration is having an effect on our public services? It needs to be reduced, and quickly. Why baffling? If we go backwards economically it is going to affect a lot of people. The 'outs' may not care about that that much as long as their vote wins but others do. Living in the past is going to help no-one. Reforming EU rules that aren't functioning well will. And we can't make that come about if we are trading from a lonely stall 25miles away from where the real action is. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Hevon 22 Feb 16 4.09pm

Originally posted by We are goin up!

I find it baffling that a leftie is suddenly quoting big business and currency fluctuations as reasons for staying in. Where were these considerations at the General Election?

Do you not think immigration is having an effect on our public services? It needs to be reduced, and quickly.

Why baffling? If we go backwards economically it is going to affect a lot of people. The 'outs' may not care about that that much as long as their vote wins but others do. Living in the past is going to help no-one. Reforming EU rules that aren't functioning well will. And we can't make that come about if we are trading from a lonely stall 25miles away from where the real action is.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 22 Feb 16 4.12pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Why baffling? If we go backwards economically it is going to affect a lot of people. The 'outs' may not care about that that much as long as their vote wins but others do. Living in the past is going to help no-one. Reforming EU rules that aren't functioning well will. And we can't make that come about if we are trading from a lonely stall 25miles away from where the real action is. How is that going to happen?
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Hrolf The Ganger

22 Feb 16 4.12pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Why baffling? If we go backwards economically it is going to affect a lot of people. The 'outs' may not care about that that much as long as their vote wins but others do. Living in the past is going to help no-one. Reforming EU rules that aren't functioning well will. And we can't make that come about if we are trading from a lonely stall 25miles away from where the real action is.

How is that going to happen?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Feb 16 4.14pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Would that not have a negative effect on smaller local business? Short term, probably, but I'd question whether a business that can only employ people and provide a standard of living below the cost of living actually serves society at all. Also more than a few small business paying minimum wage are quite profitable, often remarkably so for the owners (Child Care, Cleaning companies and retirement housing for example). If it was suitably staggered within a tax subsidy for business with less than say 10 employees, you could graduate that impact, whilst reducing long term welfare dependency. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Feb 16 4.14pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Would that not have a negative effect on smaller local business?

Short term, probably, but I'd question whether a business that can only employ people and provide a standard of living below the cost of living actually serves society at all.

Also more than a few small business paying minimum wage are quite profitable, often remarkably so for the owners (Child Care, Cleaning companies and retirement housing for example).

If it was suitably staggered within a tax subsidy for business with less than say 10 employees, you could graduate that impact, whilst reducing long term welfare dependency.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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npn Crowborough 22 Feb 16 4.30pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Why baffling? If we go backwards economically it is going to affect a lot of people. The 'outs' may not care about that that much as long as their vote wins but others do. Living in the past is going to help no-one. Reforming EU rules that aren't functioning well will. And we can't make that come about if we are trading from a lonely stall 25miles away from where the real action is. To be honest, that's currently my biggest "out"-leaning reason. Cameron went to the EU with a big stick, namely, "we are having a referendum and if you don't give us something we may lose", and still he came back with next to nothing. Once that stick is gone, he'll get no change at all from Brussels. That's why I thought (and still do) that his bluff of going to the EU demanding change was a very dangerous one, and it's right-royally shafted him!
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Crowborough 22 Feb 16 4.30pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Why baffling? If we go backwards economically it is going to affect a lot of people. The 'outs' may not care about that that much as long as their vote wins but others do. Living in the past is going to help no-one. Reforming EU rules that aren't functioning well will. And we can't make that come about if we are trading from a lonely stall 25miles away from where the real action is.

To be honest, that's currently my biggest "out"-leaning reason. Cameron went to the EU with a big stick, namely, "we are having a referendum and if you don't give us something we may lose", and still he came back with next to nothing. Once that stick is gone, he'll get no change at all from Brussels. That's why I thought (and still do) that his bluff of going to the EU demanding change was a very dangerous one, and it's right-royally shafted him!

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Kermit8 Hevon 22 Feb 16 4.37pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger How is that going to happen? Well, in the same way they reformed the wasteful 'fish discard' issue a couple of years back. Debate, lobbying, presentation of facts, pressure, etc. The things that are broken need fixing. How can we help if we are locked out? The EU (common market, eec) over the last 70 years has been great for peace and prosperity and not so great for one or two other things which, rightly in some cases, bother a lot of people. But we should still appreciate the excellent results of its coming about and not do away with them lightly. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Hevon 22 Feb 16 4.37pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

How is that going to happen?

Well, in the same way they reformed the wasteful 'fish discard' issue a couple of years back. Debate, lobbying, presentation of facts, pressure, etc. The things that are broken need fixing. How can we help if we are locked out?

The EU (common market, eec) over the last 70 years has been great for peace and prosperity and not so great for one or two other things which, rightly in some cases, bother a lot of people. But we should still appreciate the excellent results of its coming about and not do away with them lightly.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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becky over the moon 22 Feb 16 4.51pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Why baffling? If we go backwards economically it is going to affect a lot of people. The 'outs' may not care about that that much as long as their vote wins but others do. Living in the past is going to help no-one. Reforming EU rules that aren't functioning well will. And we can't make that come about if we are trading from a lonely stall 25miles away from where the real action is. If all the countries with their snouts in the EU money trough decide it will remain so, we will always be one of the few EU members pouring the gravy into the troughs for them and will never be able to outvote them on ANY reform that will reduce how much they are getting out. - as in previous attempts to reform the CAP which the French benefit so well from..... A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 22 Feb 16 4.51pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Why baffling? If we go backwards economically it is going to affect a lot of people. The 'outs' may not care about that that much as long as their vote wins but others do. Living in the past is going to help no-one. Reforming EU rules that aren't functioning well will. And we can't make that come about if we are trading from a lonely stall 25miles away from where the real action is.

If all the countries with their snouts in the EU money trough decide it will remain so, we will always be one of the few EU members pouring the gravy into the troughs for them and will never be able to outvote them on ANY reform that will reduce how much they are getting out. - as in previous attempts to reform the CAP which the French benefit so well from.....

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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beagle pom tiddly om pom pom 22 Feb 16 5.00pm
Originally posted by Hoof Hearted There is no need for "little englanders" type narrative in this debate! Farage may be a lot of things - but a hypocrite he is not. He has stuck to his guns and always campaigned for the UK to exit the EU. If you're looking for a hypocrite try Cameron. He is supporting the stay in campaign to save his job after fcuking up the reform negotiations and promising a referendum. Up till now he hasn't had a good word to say about the UK. Galloway (whether one likes him or not) gave a very good speech for the out campaign - and if there's one person who is the antithesis of 'Little Englander' its Galloway [Link] When the time comes, I want die just like my Dad - at peace and asleep. Not screaming and terrified. Like his passengers.
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pom tiddly om pom pom 22 Feb 16 5.00pm

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

There is no need for "little englanders" type narrative in this debate!

Farage may be a lot of things - but a hypocrite he is not.

He has stuck to his guns and always campaigned for the UK to exit the EU.

If you're looking for a hypocrite try Cameron. He is supporting the stay in campaign to save his job after fcuking up the reform negotiations and promising a referendum. Up till now he hasn't had a good word to say about the UK.

Galloway (whether one likes him or not) gave a very good speech for the out campaign - and if there's one person who is the antithesis of 'Little Englander' its Galloway
[Link]

When the time comes, I want die just like my Dad - at peace and asleep.
Not screaming and terrified.
Like his passengers.

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aquickgame2 Beni = summer,Caribbean = winter 22 Feb 16 5.08pm
Originally posted by wombat84 100% out. I find this all very interesting...apart from the immigration problem,I would like to know why you are 100% out. Serious question by the way,I've asked before and not been given an answer
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aquickgame2

Beni = summer,Caribbean = winter 22 Feb 16 5.08pm

Originally posted by wombat84

100% out.

I find this all very interesting...apart from the immigration problem,I would like to know why you are 100% out.

Serious question by the way,I've asked before and not been given an answer

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Hrolf The Ganger 22 Feb 16 5.14pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Well, in the same way they reformed the wasteful 'fish discard' issue a couple of years back. Debate, lobbying, presentation of facts, pressure, etc. The things that are broken need fixing. How can we help if we are locked out? The EU (common market, eec) over the last 70 years has been great for peace and prosperity and not so great for one or two other things which, rightly in some cases, bother a lot of people. But we should still appreciate the excellent results of its coming about and not do away with them lightly. Hardly a defining argumet for Britain's influence in the EU. No one would take leaving the EU lightly or deny some of the benefits, but to claim that it is responsible for peace and prosperity is a little implausible. I'd give far more credit to The Bomb, Thatcher and North Sea Oil. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (22 Feb 2016 5.14pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

22 Feb 16 5.14pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Well, in the same way they reformed the wasteful 'fish discard' issue a couple of years back. Debate, lobbying, presentation of facts, pressure, etc. The things that are broken need fixing. How can we help if we are locked out?

Hardly a defining argumet for Britain's influence in the EU.

No one would take leaving the EU lightly or deny some of the benefits, but to claim that it is responsible for peace and prosperity is a little implausible.
I'd give far more credit to The Bomb, Thatcher and North Sea Oil.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (22 Feb 2016 5.14pm)

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chris123 hove actually 22 Feb 16 5.15pm
I'll tell you why I'm out and that's to repatriate our legal system - I'd rather have bad laws created by people we've elected at home than be unable to influence the EU legal system - and this was never part of the deal in 1975.
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hove actually 22 Feb 16 5.15pm

I'll tell you why I'm out and that's to repatriate our legal system - I'd rather have bad laws created by people we've elected at home than be unable to influence the EU legal system - and this was never part of the deal in 1975.

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Stuk Top half 22 Feb 16 5.19pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Well, in the same way they reformed the wasteful 'fish discard' issue a couple of years back. Debate, lobbying, presentation of facts, pressure, etc. The things that are broken need fixing. How can we help if we are locked out? The EU (common market, eec) over the last 70 years has been great for peace and prosperity and not so great for one or two other things which, rightly in some cases, bother a lot of people. But we should still appreciate the excellent results of its coming about and not do away with them lightly. Via a TV show with a celebrity chef you mean? Changing the EU from within is about as easy as it was for any SPL club to change anything that didn't favour Celtic and Rangers. If either of them voted against, that was that. Only this is 28 voters, rather than just 12. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 22 Feb 16 5.19pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Via a TV show with a celebrity chef you mean?

Changing the EU from within is about as easy as it was for any SPL club to change anything that didn't favour Celtic and Rangers. If either of them voted against, that was that.

Only this is 28 voters, rather than just 12.

Optimistic as ever

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