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Matov 05 Apr 20 11.16am
Originally posted by Badger11 My concern for many years now has been this country's dependency on energy from dodgy parts of the globe and what would happen if we had another 1970s oils crisis. I realise now that my concern is well founded but it goes much deeper than energy. As you say we need to focus this country on sourcing our goods and supplies internally first and if not from the UK then from stable democratic countries. Cheap has consequences. Chinese factories are now back to work and they will be mass producing the goods and the medical supplies we so desperately require because they caused the problem. A bit like a double glazing salesman going round smashing peoples windows. All of this. We can never be so reliant on a foul Communist regime ever again. And energy independence has to be the primary concern with the reality that a Europe that embraces Russia has all of that solved. More fracking, more money spent on viable alternatives and with Russia in the fold, vast amounts of mineral resources. Europe can feed, clothe and power itself if there is a collective will. Guilty as charged by the way of being hooked on the cheap consumer goods from China. From my mobile to lap tops to clothing and so on. That has to stop. Individuals can make a real difference here if we vow to reject Chinese goods. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

05 Apr 20 11.16am

Originally posted by Badger11

My concern for many years now has been this country's dependency on energy from dodgy parts of the globe and what would happen if we had another 1970s oils crisis. I realise now that my concern is well founded but it goes much deeper than energy.

As you say we need to focus this country on sourcing our goods and supplies internally first and if not from the UK then from stable democratic countries. Cheap has consequences.

Chinese factories are now back to work and they will be mass producing the goods and the medical supplies we so desperately require because they caused the problem.

A bit like a double glazing salesman going round smashing peoples windows.

All of this. We can never be so reliant on a foul Communist regime ever again.

And energy independence has to be the primary concern with the reality that a Europe that embraces Russia has all of that solved. More fracking, more money spent on viable alternatives and with Russia in the fold, vast amounts of mineral resources. Europe can feed, clothe and power itself if there is a collective will.

Guilty as charged by the way of being hooked on the cheap consumer goods from China. From my mobile to lap tops to clothing and so on. That has to stop. Individuals can make a real difference here if we vow to reject Chinese goods.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov 05 Apr 20 11.22am
Originally posted by Badger11 You don't need the EU with all its structures for what I and others are suggesting, just a free trade bloc, nice try though. Yes but lets not discount a wider sense of Europeanism either. Just because the EU is rotten to the core does not mean that some of its founding principles should be discarded either. A Europe pulling in the same direction, in fact a wider Western Civilisation, has everything it requires to flourish. Trade is the key, undoubtedly but strengthening common bonds of identity should not be treated lightly. When you look at many of the social ills in this country then primarily they are caused by clashes of cultural values that come from far outside of the borders of Europe. Outside of the Roma population then I cannot think of any other group of Europeans in the UK who do not contribute far more than they take. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

05 Apr 20 11.22am

Originally posted by Badger11

You don't need the EU with all its structures for what I and others are suggesting, just a free trade bloc, nice try though.

Yes but lets not discount a wider sense of Europeanism either. Just because the EU is rotten to the core does not mean that some of its founding principles should be discarded either.

A Europe pulling in the same direction, in fact a wider Western Civilisation, has everything it requires to flourish.

Trade is the key, undoubtedly but strengthening common bonds of identity should not be treated lightly. When you look at many of the social ills in this country then primarily they are caused by clashes of cultural values that come from far outside of the borders of Europe. Outside of the Roma population then I cannot think of any other group of Europeans in the UK who do not contribute far more than they take.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Henry of Peckham Eton Mess 05 Apr 20 11.24am
Originally posted by cpfc_chap [Link] But what about EUs balkan neighbours? Every country suddenly needs certain items that are in short supply ... Trump has banned US exports of respirators to Canada ... at the end of the day, it will be conscience or price that determines where they go. Denial is not just a river in Egypt

Henry of Peckham

Eton Mess 05 Apr 20 11.24am

Originally posted by cpfc_chap

[Link]

But what about EUs balkan neighbours?

Every country suddenly needs certain items that are in short supply ... Trump has banned US exports of respirators to Canada ... at the end of the day, it will be conscience or price that determines where they go.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt

DANGERCLOSE London 05 Apr 20 12.55pm
Originally posted by Badger11 You don't need the EU with all its structures for what I and others are suggesting, just a free trade bloc, nice try though. Agreed

DANGERCLOSE

London 05 Apr 20 12.55pm

Originally posted by Badger11

You don't need the EU with all its structures for what I and others are suggesting, just a free trade bloc, nice try though.

Agreed

Badger11 Beckenham 05 Apr 20 12.59pm
Originally posted by Matov All of this. We can never be so reliant on a foul Communist regime ever again. And energy independence has to be the primary concern with the reality that a Europe that embraces Russia has all of that solved. More fracking, more money spent on viable alternatives and with Russia in the fold, vast amounts of mineral resources. Europe can feed, clothe and power itself if there is a collective will. Guilty as charged by the way of being hooked on the cheap consumer goods from China. From my mobile to lap tops to clothing and so on. That has to stop. Individuals can make a real difference here if we vow to reject Chinese goods. And me I have a Chinese phone so yes I am a hypocrite. What we need now are UK entrepreneurs to provide us with an alternative I would be willing to pay a little more to buy British or European. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 05 Apr 20 12.59pm

Originally posted by Matov

All of this. We can never be so reliant on a foul Communist regime ever again.

Guilty as charged by the way of being hooked on the cheap consumer goods from China. From my mobile to lap tops to clothing and so on. That has to stop. Individuals can make a real difference here if we vow to reject Chinese goods.

And me I have a Chinese phone so yes I am a hypocrite.

What we need now are UK entrepreneurs to provide us with an alternative I would be willing to pay a little more to buy British or European.

One more point

DANGERCLOSE London 05 Apr 20 1.02pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Hopefully it will refocus minds everywhere in Europe.I trust it will stop any suggestions in the UK that the EU is anything other than a group of nations acting collaboratively when it is in their common interest to do so, whilst stopping those in the EU who would like to change that. That's though a long way down the road. Dealing with the crisis comes first. Agreeing the needed extension next. EU reform after that, and then us rejoining that reformed EU. You know it makes sense!!! [Tweet Link]

DANGERCLOSE

London 05 Apr 20 1.02pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Hopefully it will refocus minds everywhere in Europe.I trust it will stop any suggestions in the UK that the EU is anything other than a group of nations acting collaboratively when it is in their common interest to do so, whilst stopping those in the EU who would like to change that.

That's though a long way down the road. Dealing with the crisis comes first. Agreeing the needed extension next. EU reform after that, and then us rejoining that reformed EU.

You know it makes sense!!!

[Tweet Link]

the silurian The garden of England.(not really) 05 Apr 20 1.04pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Hopefully it will refocus minds everywhere in Europe.I trust it will stop any suggestions in the UK that the EU is anything other than a group of nations acting collaboratively when it is in their common interest to do so, whilst stopping those in the EU who would like to change that. That's though a long way down the road. Dealing with the crisis comes first. Agreeing the needed extension next. EU reform after that, and then us rejoining that reformed EU. You know it makes sense!!! in your strange mind it may make sense!

the silurian

The garden of England.(not really) 05 Apr 20 1.04pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That's though a long way down the road. Dealing with the crisis comes first. Agreeing the needed extension next. EU reform after that, and then us rejoining that reformed EU.

You know it makes sense!!!

in your strange mind it may make sense!

cryrst The garden of England 05 Apr 20 1.24pm
Originally posted by DANGERCLOSE [Tweet Link] Many brexit voters enjoy eu rules yes. It isnt beyond the thought process to rejoin with our terms adhered to. That's what cameron got duffed up for hence we brexited.

cryrst

The garden of England 05 Apr 20 1.24pm

Originally posted by DANGERCLOSE

[Tweet Link]

Many brexit voters enjoy eu rules yes.
It isnt beyond the thought process to rejoin with our terms adhered to. That's what cameron got duffed up for hence we brexited.

Badger11 Beckenham 08 Apr 20 12.12pm
EU talks over yirus package stall basically its a north south divide with the North expected to fund the poorer countries only they don't seem to keen on it. [Link] Meanwhile the EU chief scientist has resigned he's fed up up with the EU (welcome to the party). [Link] With all the in fighting going on I was half expecting the French and the Irish to blame us they probably haven't got round to it yet. Edited by Badger11 (08 Apr 2020 12.12pm) One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 08 Apr 20 12.12pm

EU talks over yirus package stall basically its a north south divide with the North expected to fund the poorer countries only they don't seem to keen on it.

[Link]

Meanwhile the EU chief scientist has resigned he's fed up up with the EU (welcome to the party).

[Link]

With all the in fighting going on I was half expecting the French and the Irish to blame us they probably haven't got round to it yet.

Edited by Badger11 (08 Apr 2020 12.12pm)

One more point

Badger11 Beckenham 09 Apr 20 8.58am
Oh dear what a shame it's all going Pete Tong. ""Italy's prime minister has told the BBC that the European Union risks failing as a project in the coronavirus crisis."" [Link] One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 09 Apr 20 8.58am

Oh dear what a shame it's all going Pete Tong.

""Italy's prime minister has told the BBC that the European Union risks failing as a project in the coronavirus crisis.""

[Link]

One more point

Matov 09 Apr 20 11.15am
Originally posted by Badger11 Oh dear what a shame it's all going Pete Tong. ""Italy's prime minister has told the BBC that the European Union risks failing as a project in the coronavirus crisis."" [Link] Huge pressures and in many ways, the cause of its own problems. For decades its proponents presented it as the solution to all Europes woes in a kind of soft focus huggy kind of fashion and when the s*** does hit the fan in a serious way, it is revealed as being nothing more than a talking shop that spews out legislation for the sake of it. And the single currency? It makes zero sense now for Italy, Greece and even Spain to remain in it. To a lesser extent Ireland as well. The first three are so reliant on tourism that the impact of this is going to be huge. And they have no fiscal control over how they deal with that. Ireland will need to make a choice soon between continuing to be a tax-haven that is a thorn in the side for a lot of European countrys or whether it actually wants to truly be a European nation with all that entails. Salvini is waiting in the wings in Italy and Le Pen in France. Both have a chance of assuming leadership in the next 2 years or running the establishment so close that they cause chaos anyway. The East European nations are refusing to play ball over the migrant crisis and with us sailing away as well, and taking our financial ball with us, the EU is in dire trouble. Can it survive in its current form? It will try but I suspect that its own inflexibility with be its downfall. A rocky decade ahead me thinks. We are better off out of it but we will still have to bear the brunt of the bow waves as it crashes head-long into the storm. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

09 Apr 20 11.15am

Originally posted by Badger11

Oh dear what a shame it's all going Pete Tong.

""Italy's prime minister has told the BBC that the European Union risks failing as a project in the coronavirus crisis.""

[Link]

Huge pressures and in many ways, the cause of its own problems. For decades its proponents presented it as the solution to all Europes woes in a kind of soft focus huggy kind of fashion and when the s*** does hit the fan in a serious way, it is revealed as being nothing more than a talking shop that spews out legislation for the sake of it.

And the single currency? It makes zero sense now for Italy, Greece and even Spain to remain in it. To a lesser extent Ireland as well.

The first three are so reliant on tourism that the impact of this is going to be huge. And they have no fiscal control over how they deal with that.

Ireland will need to make a choice soon between continuing to be a tax-haven that is a thorn in the side for a lot of European countrys or whether it actually wants to truly be a European nation with all that entails.

Salvini is waiting in the wings in Italy and Le Pen in France. Both have a chance of assuming leadership in the next 2 years or running the establishment so close that they cause chaos anyway.

The East European nations are refusing to play ball over the migrant crisis and with us sailing away as well, and taking our financial ball with us, the EU is in dire trouble.

Can it survive in its current form? It will try but I suspect that its own inflexibility with be its downfall.

A rocky decade ahead me thinks. We are better off out of it but we will still have to bear the brunt of the bow waves as it crashes head-long into the storm.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

chris123 hove actually 09 Apr 20 11.27am
Originally posted by Badger11 Oh dear what a shame it's all going Pete Tong. ""Italy's prime minister has told the BBC that the European Union risks failing as a project in the coronavirus crisis."" [Link] It's to be expected that a country puts its own national interests first - just glad we're out.

chris123

hove actually 09 Apr 20 11.27am

Originally posted by Badger11

Oh dear what a shame it's all going Pete Tong.

""Italy's prime minister has told the BBC that the European Union risks failing as a project in the coronavirus crisis.""

[Link]

It's to be expected that a country puts its own national interests first - just glad we're out.

mezzer Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 09 Apr 20 11.29am
There was a dress rehearsal for what's coming down the tracks, quite quickly, in 2011. The EU survived then, but the writing was on the wall. The UK heeded the warning (admittedly with most people probably not fully understanding why) in 2016. Others will most likely begin to follow from the 2021 elections onwards. The fall out will be pretty severe globally (markets wise). It usually takes a while, but harsh reality usually wins over idealism in the end. Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

mezzer

Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 09 Apr 20 11.29am

There was a dress rehearsal for what's coming down the tracks, quite quickly, in 2011. The EU survived then, but the writing was on the wall. The UK heeded the warning (admittedly with most people probably not fully understanding why) in 2016. Others will most likely begin to follow from the 2021 elections onwards.

The fall out will be pretty severe globally (markets wise). It usually takes a while, but harsh reality usually wins over idealism in the end.

Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

chris123 hove actually 09 Apr 20 11.32am
Originally posted by Matov Huge pressures and in many ways, the cause of its own problems. For decades its proponents presented it as the solution to all Europes woes in a kind of soft focus huggy kind of fashion and when the s*** does hit the fan in a serious way, it is revealed as being nothing more than a talking shop that spews out legislation for the sake of it. And the single currency? It makes zero sense now for Italy, Greece and even Spain to remain in it. To a lesser extent Ireland as well. The first three are so reliant on tourism that the impact of this is going to be huge. And they have no fiscal control over how they deal with that. Ireland will need to make a choice soon between continuing to be a tax-haven that is a thorn in the side for a lot of European countrys or whether it actually wants to truly be a European nation with all that entails. Salvini is waiting in the wings in Italy and Le Pen in France. Both have a chance of assuming leadership in the next 2 years or running the establishment so close that they cause chaos anyway. The East European nations are refusing to play ball over the migrant crisis and with us sailing away as well, and taking our financial ball with us, the EU is in dire trouble. Can it survive in its current form? It will try but I suspect that its own inflexibility with be its downfall. A rocky decade ahead me thinks. We are better off out of it but we will still have to bear the brunt of the bow waves as it crashes head-long into the storm. I doubt Greece can with all its euro and USD debt.

chris123

hove actually 09 Apr 20 11.32am

Originally posted by Matov

And the single currency? It makes zero sense now for Italy, Greece and even Spain to remain in it. To a lesser extent Ireland as well.

The first three are so reliant on tourism that the impact of this is going to be huge. And they have no fiscal control over how they deal with that.

Salvini is waiting in the wings in Italy and Le Pen in France. Both have a chance of assuming leadership in the next 2 years or running the establishment so close that they cause chaos anyway.

The East European nations are refusing to play ball over the migrant crisis and with us sailing away as well, and taking our financial ball with us, the EU is in dire trouble.

Can it survive in its current form? It will try but I suspect that its own inflexibility with be its downfall.

A rocky decade ahead me thinks. We are better off out of it but we will still have to bear the brunt of the bow waves as it crashes head-long into the storm.

I doubt Greece can with all its euro and USD debt.

Matov 09 Apr 20 11.36am
Originally posted by mezzer There was a dress rehearsal for what's coming down the tracks, quite quickly, in 2011. The warning signs were as early as the early 90's and the implosion of Yugoslavia. This was the EEC's first big foreign policy test and it imploded. Germany, in its first big foreign policy decision after reunification, acted on its own in recognizing Croatian independence (I believe it was second only to the Vatican in doing so) against what had been supposedly agreed European policy and essentially used that position to trade off with the UK over some aspect of finance that they had been at logger-heads over. And it was the US who had to intervene in the end, dragging Nato with it, to act decisively. Europe did nothing other than stand by with its arms embargo whilst hundreds of thousands of people were massacred. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

09 Apr 20 11.36am

Originally posted by mezzer

There was a dress rehearsal for what's coming down the tracks, quite quickly, in 2011.

The warning signs were as early as the early 90's and the implosion of Yugoslavia. This was the EEC's first big foreign policy test and it imploded. Germany, in its first big foreign policy decision after reunification, acted on its own in recognizing Croatian independence (I believe it was second only to the Vatican in doing so) against what had been supposedly agreed European policy and essentially used that position to trade off with the UK over some aspect of finance that they had been at logger-heads over.

And it was the US who had to intervene in the end, dragging Nato with it, to act decisively. Europe did nothing other than stand by with its arms embargo whilst hundreds of thousands of people were massacred.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov 09 Apr 20 11.40am
Originally posted by chris123 I doubt Greece can with all its euro and USD debt. Then it continues to rot. And far,far,far more people will die before their time because of that than this wretched Wuhan Flu. Peoples lives at at stake here. Not a few but 10,000's of thouands. To protect what? Banks who bribe and cajole behind the scenes? Whilst I still believe it is impossible to claim with any certainty about what the world will look like post-Corona, I am convinced that the sheer scale of it will change almost everything we previously considered to be the norm. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

09 Apr 20 11.40am

Originally posted by chris123

I doubt Greece can with all its euro and USD debt.

Then it continues to rot. And far,far,far more people will die before their time because of that than this wretched Wuhan Flu.

Peoples lives at at stake here. Not a few but 10,000's of thouands. To protect what? Banks who bribe and cajole behind the scenes?

Whilst I still believe it is impossible to claim with any certainty about what the world will look like post-Corona, I am convinced that the sheer scale of it will change almost everything we previously considered to be the norm.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

dannyboy1978 09 Apr 20 12.41pm
It will save us a fortune leaving the EU, the pigs will need bailing out and we have no responsibility. Good luck France and Germany

dannyboy1978

09 Apr 20 12.41pm

It will save us a fortune leaving the EU, the pigs will need bailing out and we have no responsibility. Good luck France and Germany

Stirlingsays 09 Apr 20 1.06pm
Originally posted by dannyboy1978 It will save us a fortune leaving the EU, the pigs will need bailing out and we have no responsibility. Good luck France and Germany If MMT doesn't work they are well and truly fecked as are we, just slightly less.....They keep going to the credit well. At some point it becomes unsustainable. It's robbing the future generations of financial options because they are having to pay off the selfishness of the dead. Somehow I can't see future generations accepting that and the whole facade falls apart. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Apr 2020 1.06pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

09 Apr 20 1.06pm

Originally posted by dannyboy1978

It will save us a fortune leaving the EU, the pigs will need bailing out and we have no responsibility. Good luck France and Germany

If MMT doesn't work they are well and truly fecked as are we, just slightly less.....They keep going to the credit well.

At some point it becomes unsustainable. It's robbing the future generations of financial options because they are having to pay off the selfishness of the dead.

Somehow I can't see future generations accepting that and the whole facade falls apart.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Apr 2020 1.06pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Badger11 Beckenham 14 Apr 20 10.06am
As if the EU doesn't have enough problems it seems that the olive tree industry is in crisis with it's own virus. [Link] One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 14 Apr 20 10.06am

As if the EU doesn't have enough problems it seems that the olive tree industry is in crisis with it's own virus.

[Link]

One more point

Badger11 Beckenham 16 Apr 20 10.10am
IMF urge UK to delay Brexit talks. [Link] I don't think so, the IMF has been an EU cheerleader for the last 4 years it is certainly not impartial. Now is the time to stand firm we will get a good deal if Boris holds his nerve. Edited by Badger11 (16 Apr 2020 10.10am) One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 16 Apr 20 10.10am

IMF urge UK to delay Brexit talks.

[Link]

I don't think so, the IMF has been an EU cheerleader for the last 4 years it is certainly not impartial.

Now is the time to stand firm we will get a good deal if Boris holds his nerve.

Edited by Badger11 (16 Apr 2020 10.10am)

One more point

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