50 million plus a day we pay the EU.

Not histrionic in the slightest. If you are trying to skewer those in support of leaving for "what the future will hold", expect it right back at you. You will have to work within the confines of a declining outmoded trade bloc, however.

"..the same here in our Parliament" -- so that's a candid confession that where a huge number of laws passed and handed down to us is not "ours". Good. We have 8.5% influence in the EUparl, which counts for FA given QVM. 300 EU rulings per day generated by an unelected commission and rubber-stamped by the EUparl, each of those 300 taking more power to Brussels.

"Economic clout...,"
I demonstrated this not to be the case. You clearly didn't look at the data. No matter. Horse, water.

"peace...,"
Yeah, who needed NATO when we have Van Rompuy. Give me a break - tell me you don't believe that, really??

"easy travel...,"
I've traveled extensively both in Europe and the rest of the world (you know, that place with 160+ countries outside the EU?). You're telling me the EU facilitated my visa-on-arrival in Australia? In Cambodia? Are those cheap flights all down to the EU too, and nothing to do with supply, demand and the rise of cheap low-cost carriers(despite EUcom efforts with the Emissions Trading Scheme)? Can the Swiss & Norwegians get NHS cover here? In other words, rubbish.

"cleaner rivers and seas, etc...." The seas are certainly cleaner, as our fish-stocks (60% of "EU" waters) have been decimated under the Common Fisheries Policy, and our fishing industry has declined massively. And as for rivers, I prefer them dredged (as they have been done in antiquity) and not flooding over the Somerset Levels & Cockermouth. We have the EU “Saving wetland habitats: more money for key sites” directive to thank for that.

Finally, as for "solving our social ills" - as per the majority of the other 160+ countries in the world, I would like our ELECTORATE to vote in the government to which we hold accountable to solve these "ills". If they don't do a good job, we boot them out and elect another. Why is this concept so hard for you people to understand?

Thank God someone with a grasp on reality. I doff my cap.

Nice try.

We are going into the unknown we all agree on that. I believe we will be worse off. Some agree, some don't. The ones that don't have jacksh*t to offer anything concrete that will be better off. There's a reason for that. No evidence. No definite proposed trade deals in place to cover any losses incurred on leaving. No talk about the safety of employment and the firms here who need the EU.

For those that want to stay at least we have the trade figures, economic clout and other benefits associated with being in the EU at hand.

You want to risk that. I don't. I want Britain as strong as it can be. Going backwards isn't going to help.

No U-turn Hoof. Never mind.

also, you called yourself a moderate earlier. What was that all about?

Edited by Kermit8 (24 Feb 2016 5.30pm)

It won't cut no ice with Kermit though Danny.

-.-'

How long will it take to renegotiate trade deals with more than 50 countries who the U.K trades with on the basis of being in the E.U?

I am not a regular poster but reading this thread really has got me shaking my head.
Whilst nobody 'knows' for certain what will happen in the event of a brexit (or for that matter any event in the future) any analysis of the economic impact clearly favours an 'in' vote.
A bloomberg survey of economists this morning has found that the risk of a recession in the event of brexit has tripled and 29 of 34 saw sterling slipping below 1.35 versus the dollar.
I am an economist myself and i disagree slightly with the first statement although i do see gdp being reduced by approximately 0.5% per annum in the event of brexit which could tip us into recession, in a low growth environment. I am however much more bearish on sterling and can see it dropping to around 1.10. Whilst i try to remain politically non aligned, when i read people quoting lord lawson (famous for the green shoots of economic spring budget, 3.5m unemployed, worst housing bubble in uk history, record high interest rates and inflation (except 74 oil crisis)) or from what i can see a bunch of political mavericks (Boris, Gove, Farage) who havnt got a single economics qualification between them blindly telling us that we would be better off, i truly shudder.
The fact is that economic downturns or recessions effect everybody but is felt most keenly by tradespeople and small businesses. Taking out 'cheaper' european labour WILL NOT increase wages (only min or living wage Policy can try to schieve that) but it will reduce demand.
When Switzerland (where i lived for 3.5 years) negotiated their free trade agreement they had to give a lot more than they received i.e. they had to allow more foreign labour in, in return for free trade and were much worse off than if they had been full eu members.
The euro is a completely different debate to the brexit debate - the weakness of the euro being that centralised monetary policy will not work for a country if their business cycle is out of step with the rest of the area i.e we could have high interest rates when we need low ones. We shouldnt be distracted by any more misinformation that uses the euro debate as a rationale.
Aside from the frankly overwhelming economic arguments, i quite like thd fact that i and my children have got the right to live and work throughout the eu, i can walk through the blue channel at the airport without having to pay excise duty (nb the Swiss were not given this), that i dont pay a tariff on a new suit from italy or bottle of wine from France purely to protect a domestic business from competition. Remember competition is good for consumers in terms of choices, freedoms and prices.
So whilst the eu is not perfect (but what system is?) We are massively better off being part of it. Please vote 'in'

Your interest is noted Johnny.

If we're bad mouthing our respective "supporters" can you explain some of your team and their merits?

I'm particularly interested in Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, and John Major.

All three are in competition to have been the worst PM's in history and one of them potentially the worst ever Chancellor. Selling Gold at rock bottom prices and declaring an end to boom and bust.... only to find they had only put an end to the boom.

I'm not advocating "Brexit" (God I hate that term) for economic reasons. I agree that for a while there will be a bit of turmoil but we'll be better off in the end.

My reason for leaving is purely about control of immigration and our right to control this and our own laws.

I was born in 1954 and have seen our country deteriorate slowly from over-population at first then overran by immigrants thanks largely to Tony Blair's reckless open door policy.

Our infrastructure cannot cope now and matters will only get worse. As members of the EU we have no way of stopping our population rising exponentially in the future. Cameron's concessions that he "fought hard" to win (lol) will have zero effect on curbing the desire of people to want to come and live here.

A vote to stay in the EU is a kick in the balls to our children and their children who might want to be living a happy life in an uncrowded island. I'll be dead before this happens thankfully.

I take your point hoof but the truth is 'do you want free trade or immigration' because they are are intrinsically linked even if we have brexit as EFTA also demands freedom of labour (degree of which is agreement dependent.) If you are arguing for economic isolation ( i would admire your honesty if you were) then history tells us e.g Devalera's ireland)that we would enter severe economic decline.
Some of the right wing press may print daily stories of our public services being under pressure but the truth is they have always been, but if the economy declines it will get a lot worse. Additionally it seems to me they are trying to spread fear - i went to school during the Thatcher years where class sizes were hitting 40 per class (now limited to 30), but fear of scarcity is good to sell newspapers but can be very misleading in this economic debate.
I wont get into a comparison of political figures ad this usually degenerates into tribalism but just wanted to point out that the political mavericks i have mentioned havnt had a glorious eceonomic past -although i take your point that gordon brown is also tainted by his market timing on gold.

Problem for me, is that these kinds of statement make me think twice about voting out (which I am inclined towards due to the EU's pandering to corporate interests). As a reason nationalism makes no sense as a reason to vote for an exit, let alone the idea of a Judeo-Christian Country which is an even more absurd reason to vote out.

Problem is, an out vote won't really change much. UK law will still fall under the European Court for Arbitration and we'll almost certainly end up joining the EEA and EFTA, because its of massive corporate interest, if not necessarily social interest.

I'd vote Yes twice, if it meant Britain First would f**k off.

I'm still in the out column, but its an uneasy feeling to see the absurdly ideological promoted as a reason for a very major change.