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Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jan 2015 11.27am
Quote TheJudge at 30 Jan 2015 10.52am
You can say what you like about Churchill but it might be more pertinent to look at how Roosevelt was happy to allow the Russians to be given eastern Europe to keep them onside and Stalin himself and his brutal regime of tyranny. He was worse than Hitler. Stalin or Roosevelt. I'm not really sure Stalin can be classed as worse than Hitler, on a parr maybe, but having read Mein Kampf, I can safely tell you what Hitler's long term plan was for 'Eastern Europe' was most certainly not as positive as the communist regimes that dominated Eastern Europe after 1945 - Which isn't a defense of those regimes. Also its important to remember that the holocaust is only the tip of the Hitler / National Socialist genocide. When you include the depopulation and genocide following operation Barbarossa, the decades of soviet pogroms and '5 year plan famines' start to look positively tame (bearing in mind the Nazi's achieved something like 10-12m deaths in the space of a few years). In truth, when genocide and whole sale murder is part of your domestic and/or foreign policy, you're 'as bad' as any other of the major murder junky c**ts of history. Its just a question of scale. Murdering two people doesn't make you better or worse than someone who murders one person. You're still a murderer, its only a quantitative difference.
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jan 2015 10.14am
Churchill was probably a prick he certainly seems like one, but he was the right prick for the job, and got it done (admittedly several hundred thousand people died in order to facilitate that success, I think leaders tend to get a bit too much credit - Churchill didn't win the war, he was just in charge of the country at the time and played his part). That Bomber Harris seemed like a right c**t as well, but if you're going to have someone in charge of Bomber command during an all out, balls to the wall, war, you want someone I suppose who can give the kind of orders that result in Dresden. Churchill, wasn't actually that much of a great politician outside of that period - Very much a War Time Leader, a bit of a drunk, plagued by depression, partial to cocaine, amazingly charismatic and quite witty (or cutting). Between 1939 and 1945 he was pretty vital. Doesn't stop him being a prick. You can't really be a politician without being a prick.
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Quote silvertop at 30 Jan 2015 4.04pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jan 2015 10.14am
Churchill was probably a prick he certainly seems like one, but he was the right prick for the job, and got it done (admittedly several hundred thousand people died in order to facilitate that success, I think leaders tend to get a bit too much credit - Churchill didn't win the war, he was just in charge of the country at the time and played his part). That Bomber Harris seemed like a right c**t as well, but if you're going to have someone in charge of Bomber command during an all out, balls to the wall, war, you want someone I suppose who can give the kind of orders that result in Dresden. Churchill, wasn't actually that much of a great politician outside of that period - Very much a War Time Leader, a bit of a drunk, plagued by depression, partial to cocaine, amazingly charismatic and quite witty (or cutting). Between 1939 and 1945 he was pretty vital. Doesn't stop him being a prick. You can't really be a politician without being a prick.
This version of events comes from a British interpreter who was present at Yalta and was exposed some time ago as cold war propaganda. Harris actually wanted the attack to cover a larger area, Chemnitz, Leipzig and Dresden. Dresden was ultimately settled on as a centre of rail, telephone systems and utilities and the design was to cause chaos among the civilian population.
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To General Anders (the victor of Monte Casino): "You can rest assured about the future of Poland..." In fairness I think he did what he could and genuinely respected the contribution of Poland to the Allied cause. Roosevelt was the f***ing idiot.
Block B comment of 2011/2012 Season: "That's better Palace, better...but still fucking shit!" ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dann to Much, Much to Yong. |
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pefwin ![]() |
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This the programme that I was talking about, I think it is pretty even handed. Although it contradicts some of the "HOL facts" on the thread, for example, his wish to bomb Dresden, he wanted it. It neatly puts Winnie into the context of his time and strips away the myth and revisionism that built up around the man. Edited by pefwin (30 Jan 2015 5.45pm)
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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Quote Kosowski at 30 Jan 2015 5.25pm
To General Anders (the victor of Monte Casino): "You can rest assured about the future of Poland..." In fairness I think he did what he could and genuinely respected the contribution of Poland to the Allied cause. Roosevelt was the f***ing idiot.
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Quote sydtheeagle at 30 Jan 2015 11.15am
Quote TheJudge at 30 Jan 2015 10.52am
Yes we can all second guess decision making from the past but it is a pointless pursuit. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. So what you're saying equates to "let's ignore a discussion of history because it can't teach us anything of use for the future." On the contrary, NOT pointless at all. Hindsight isn't the only by-product of re-examining such events. That's not what I'm saying.
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pretty offensive post 'cereal.
Kids,tired of being bothered by your pesky parents? |
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Quote TheJudge at 30 Jan 2015 7.20pm
Quote sydtheeagle at 30 Jan 2015 11.15am
Quote TheJudge at 30 Jan 2015 10.52am
Yes we can all second guess decision making from the past but it is a pointless pursuit. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. So what you're saying equates to "let's ignore a discussion of history because it can't teach us anything of use for the future." On the contrary, NOT pointless at all. Hindsight isn't the only by-product of re-examining such events. That's not what I'm saying. 'Solely responsible' hmmmmm. That one doesn't ring true.
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legaleagle ![]() |
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Quote topcat at 30 Jan 2015 2.09pm
Quote OldFella at 30 Jan 2015 10.09am
Quote Hoof Hearted at 30 Jan 2015 9.56am
At least Churchill didn't have to "sex up" documents to prosecute an illegal war.
Agreed! But oh no, here come all the loony lefties...... Wasn't it the looney lefties that were against the war right from the start?
Though before the possible response,yes I know the Moscow-instructed Communist Party (to the horror of many of the rank and file) adopted a more "neutral" position pre May 1941.
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Quote Kosowski at 30 Jan 2015 5.25pm
To General Anders (the victor of Monte Casino): "You can rest assured about the future of Poland..." In fairness I think he did what he could and genuinely respected the contribution of Poland to the Allied cause. Roosevelt was the f***ing idiot. I think realistically there wasn't much on the ground that could have been done about Poland in 1944-45 ,Stalin knew that and held all the cards.
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jan 2015 11.27am
Quote TheJudge at 30 Jan 2015 10.52am
You can say what you like about Churchill but it might be more pertinent to look at how Roosevelt was happy to allow the Russians to be given eastern Europe to keep them onside and Stalin himself and his brutal regime of tyranny. He was worse than Hitler. Stalin or Roosevelt. I'm not really sure Stalin can be classed as worse than Hitler, on a parr maybe, but having read Mein Kampf, I can safely tell you what Hitler's long term plan was for 'Eastern Europe' was most certainly not as positive as the communist regimes that dominated Eastern Europe after 1945 - Which isn't a defense of those regimes. Also its important to remember that the holocaust is only the tip of the Hitler / National Socialist genocide. When you include the depopulation and genocide following operation Barbarossa, the decades of soviet pogroms and '5 year plan famines' start to look positively tame (bearing in mind the Nazi's achieved something like 10-12m deaths in the space of a few years). In truth, when genocide and whole sale murder is part of your domestic and/or foreign policy, you're 'as bad' as any other of the major murder junky c**ts of history. Its just a question of scale. Murdering two people doesn't make you better or worse than someone who murders one person. You're still a murderer, its only a quantitative difference.
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