Gaza Strip 'invades' Israel.
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 NJ CLOCKTOWER  Tarragona 11 Apr 24 9.35am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I am neither a military strategist nor a diplomat with answers to an intractable problem as old as time. It just seems obvious that taking the approach that Israel under Netanyahu has is ultimately going to make things worse than a more nuanced, forensic and carefully thought out one. Losing the support of almost the entire developed world, including your major ally, is self defeating. Israel clearly has great intelligence sources which could be put to better use. The real problem here is Iran. Hamas being a proxy. Replacing Hamas with a non aligned authority should possibly be the aim. I was in Israel only a few weeks prior to the Hamas action and know that the relationship between ordinary Israelis, whether Jewish or Arab, is often perfectly ok. The possibility of peaceful coexistence exists at ground level. It’s the extremists that are the problem. So the idea of cultural exchanges is good, and does already exist. Rather than turn Gaza into a refugee camp with its cities rubble, I would develop it, flood it with kindness and western comforts. Show the people love in return for hatred. It takes time and is almost certainly too late for these generations. So there is a lot of agreement between us but the immediate issue is to stop escalation and pull Iran back from retaliation and Israel back from further provocation. Then to allow aid in, try to find a way to halt the war temporarily, then semi permanently, Israel to replace Netanyahu, the UN to send in peacekeepers, the Arab States to fund reconstruction, Iran to be forced by internal dissent to concentrate on itself thus reducing the power of Hamas and making its replacement easier. Impractical dreams? Probably, but better these dreams than the current nightmare. First of all I have to point out that, I am not Israeli nor Jewish. Your statement presents a thoughtful and comprehensive perspective on the Israel-Palestine conflict, you highlight the complexities involved and offer a vision for potential resolution.The world or allies have been professionally manipulated by Hamas.
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| silvertop Portishead 11 Apr 24 10.09am |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
Of course you reject any report, source or poll that disagrees with your views, while accepting anything that does agree, however crackpot those sources are - you are as constant as the northern star. I'm with Wizzy on this. Utterly skewered question probably got the results they wanted. Old trick. Muslims know Hamas committed the atrocities as Hamas have not only owned it but filmed and posted it. There will be keyboard warriors claiming it was all some Jewish conspiracy, but not 40+%.
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| georgenorman 11 Apr 24 11.00am |
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Originally posted by silvertop
I'm with Wizzy on this. Utterly skewered question probably got the results they wanted. Old trick. Muslims know Hamas committed the atrocities as Hamas have not only owned it but filmed and posted it. There will be keyboard warriors claiming it was all some Jewish conspiracy, but not 40+%. Wisbech said: "No one defends Hamas or what it did. Nor does anyone believe that Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself, or respond." Thousands of Muslims march through London practically every week, many of them defend Hamas, many of them believe that Israel does not have a right to exist or defend itself. Just look at their placards, just listen to their chants.
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| silvertop Portishead 11 Apr 24 12.25pm |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
Wisbech said: "No one defends Hamas or what it did. Nor does anyone believe that Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself, or respond." Thousands of Muslims march through London practically every week, many of them defend Hamas, many of them believe that Israel does not have a right to exist or defend itself. Just look at their placards, just listen to their chants. Oh yes indeed, but I was only responding to the point you made when you said: "...a recent survey found that only one in four British Muslims believe that Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on October 7th..." They pretty much all know full well they did it, but a pollster asks the question in a clever way and a certain % will give a certain answer that suggests otherwise. The broader point is that the protest has morphed. Initially, there was limited support. However, tell a Muslim that 30,000+ of their non-combatant brothers and sisters - mainly children - have been killed you can't expect there to be no reaction. Trouble is, this isn't Chechnya. This is Israel. This has conjured up the ancient conflict between these 2 religions. Protestors now see beyond Oct 7 and focus on the Islamic dead, on Al-Aqsa, on the occupation of one of their holiest places, of Western complicity and so on. Israel's disproportionate reaction has brought their conflict to us.
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 11 Apr 24 12.34pm |
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Edited by EverybodyDannsNow (11 Apr 2024 12.35pm)
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 11 Apr 24 12.37pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
In the vitriolic defence of Israel’s response to the attack by Hamas in this thread one crucial thing stands out. Netanyahu! His desire to remain in power and his need to continue to have the support of the hard line traditionalists and settlers is central to what is happening. No one defends Hamas or what it did. Nor does anyone believe that Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself, or respond. That’s not to say that the Palestinian people themselves don’t have legitimate reasons to feel mistreated, or not to criticise Zionism. All of which is extremely complicated and outside the current situation. The style of Israel’s response and its disregard for the lives of the innocent is indefensible. No matter what the provocation, objective or behaviour of its adversary. That would not be happening but for Netanyahu. Who is not very popular in Israel itself, let alone elsewhere. With the USA losing patience I sense change on the horizon and hopefully a reduction in civilian casualties following a more nuanced strategy in trying to eliminate Hamas. Well said.
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cryrst  The garden of England 11 Apr 24 12.51pm |
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Originally posted by silvertop
Oh yes indeed, but I was only responding to the point you made when you said: "...a recent survey found that only one in four British Muslims believe that Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on October 7th..." They pretty much all know full well they did it, but a pollster asks the question in a clever way and a certain % will give a certain answer that suggests otherwise. The broader point is that the protest has morphed. Initially, there was limited support. However, tell a Muslim that 30,000+ of their non-combatant brothers and sisters - mainly children - have been killed you can't expect there to be no reaction. Trouble is, this isn't Chechnya. This is Israel. This has conjured up the ancient conflict between these 2 religions. Protestors now see beyond Oct 7 and focus on the Islamic dead, on Al-Aqsa, on the occupation of one of their holiest places, of Western complicity and so on. Israel's disproportionate reaction has brought their conflict to us. The brother and sister bulls*** is my question. Just because they are Muslim. Most of the Palestinians would cut the throat of western Muslims for a meal. As a poster on here states regularly. Colour is skin deep. Clearly not when it’s Muslims protesting the deaths of Muslims but when it’s Muslims commuting crimes against kids it fits.
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 HKOwen  Hong Kong 11 Apr 24 1.14pm |
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but Originally posted by georgenorman
Of course you reject any report, source or poll that disagrees with your views, while accepting anything that does agree, however crackpot those sources are - you are as constant as the northern star. But nowhere near as bright , SWIDT
Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance. |
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| georgenorman 11 Apr 24 1.18pm |
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Originally posted by silvertop
Oh yes indeed, but I was only responding to the point you made when you said: "...a recent survey found that only one in four British Muslims believe that Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on October 7th..." They pretty much all know full well they did it, but a pollster asks the question in a clever way and a certain % will give a certain answer that suggests otherwise. The broader point is that the protest has morphed. Initially, there was limited support. However, tell a Muslim that 30,000+ of their non-combatant brothers and sisters - mainly children - have been killed you can't expect there to be no reaction. Trouble is, this isn't Chechnya. This is Israel. This has conjured up the ancient conflict between these 2 religions. Protestors now see beyond Oct 7 and focus on the Islamic dead, on Al-Aqsa, on the occupation of one of their holiest places, of Western complicity and so on. Israel's disproportionate reaction has brought their conflict to us. The question was not asked 'in a clever way'. Two statements were presented and the respondent was asked "for each of the following pairs of statements, choose which statement comes closest to your view." For the particular report item that you quote the pair of statements were: The 30,000+ figure of non-combatant deaths that you quote is of course a Hamas supplied figure, but you don't seem to have any problem accepting it. Edited by georgenorman (11 Apr 2024 1.19pm)
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 11 Apr 24 1.34pm |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
The question was not asked 'in a clever way'. Two statements were presented and the respondent was asked "for each of the following pairs of statements, choose which statement comes closest to your view." For the particular report item that you quote the pair of statements were: The 30,000+ figure of non-combatant deaths that you quote is of course a Hamas supplied figure, but you don't seem to have any problem accepting it. Edited by georgenorman (11 Apr 2024 1.19pm) Genuine question; based on all the photos/videos and information we do have access to, do you really believe the civilian death toll is going to be significantly less than what Hamas are suggesting? What's a figure you'd be comfortable agreeing to at this stage as a likely civilian death toll?
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| georgenorman 11 Apr 24 2.13pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Genuine question; based on all the photos/videos and information we do have access to, do you really believe the civilian death toll is going to be significantly less than what Hamas are suggesting? What's a figure you'd be comfortable agreeing to at this stage as a likely civilian death toll? Do you really believe that Hamas supplied information is reliable? I'm not comfortable with any civilian death toll. Edited by georgenorman (11 Apr 2024 2.13pm)
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 11 Apr 24 2.43pm |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
Do you really believe that Hamas supplied information is reliable? I'm not comfortable with any civilian death toll. Edited by georgenorman (11 Apr 2024 2.13pm) In general, no I don’t. Now I’ve answered your question maybe you could answer mine: do you believe that the civilian death toll is going to be significantly less than what Hamas have suggested?
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