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Stirlingsays 04 Nov 19 6.14pm
Originally posted by Jway89 I would think that was a given from the outset. If you're dealing with forces like USA and China/Asia, seems reasonable to be in a large group too. I personally think the bigger issue will be if an EU army is created and, IF, we're still 'in' and don't veto it's creation/membership; what does that mean for NATO? (For the penny pinchers out there, that's £55bn a year. Who does this army answer to? Could we have a situation where our own army is used against us? All valid observations and indeed were discussed back in the early seventies. I think the early Tories like Thatcher, who were pro Europe, thought that they could win the battle of ideas and shape the union away from pooling sovereignty beyond trade and other aspects like increased cooperation on security, universities and so on....stuff no one gets too bothered about. She came to realise however that she was mistaken but unfortunately only after signing a couple of 'ever closer union' treaties. I do see a genuine threat to NATO down the pipe, which are excellent points you make plus a moving away from the US...I can't support either of those directions as particularly wise. Also, while I support Brexit as a very necessary device for the legitimacy of the democratic process....looking at the deal, which is admittedly better than May's it still is pretty poor. We are in so deep with the EU that even Boris's deal still makes us far too fiscally affected if the EU collapses....which does kind of make you scratch your head as to the point in that regard......Because personally I don't see the EU as ultimately fiscally solvent. But Brexit is a principle, that said who knows where we will be ten years down the line. Probably on our third vote. Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2019 6.23pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

04 Nov 19 6.14pm

Originally posted by Jway89

I would think that was a given from the outset. If you're dealing with forces like USA and China/Asia, seems reasonable to be in a large group too.
I personally think the bigger issue will be if an EU army is created and, IF, we're still 'in' and don't veto it's creation/membership; what does that mean for NATO? (For the penny pinchers out there, that's £55bn a year. Who does this army answer to? Could we have a situation where our own army is used against us?

All valid observations and indeed were discussed back in the early seventies.

I think the early Tories like Thatcher, who were pro Europe, thought that they could win the battle of ideas and shape the union away from pooling sovereignty beyond trade and other aspects like increased cooperation on security, universities and so on....stuff no one gets too bothered about.

She came to realise however that she was mistaken but unfortunately only after signing a couple of 'ever closer union' treaties. I do see a genuine threat to NATO down the pipe, which are excellent points you make plus a moving away from the US...I can't support either of those directions as particularly wise.

Also, while I support Brexit as a very necessary device for the legitimacy of the democratic process....looking at the deal, which is admittedly better than May's it still is pretty poor.

We are in so deep with the EU that even Boris's deal still makes us far too fiscally affected if the EU collapses....which does kind of make you scratch your head as to the point in that regard......Because personally I don't see the EU as ultimately fiscally solvent.

But Brexit is a principle, that said who knows where we will be ten years down the line.

Probably on our third vote.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2019 6.23pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

the silurian The garden of England.(not really) 04 Nov 19 6.16pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow Someone saying they want something is not the same as saying it is an inevitability based on a treaty though, is it? Not at all, we will wait and see though!

the silurian

The garden of England.(not really) 04 Nov 19 6.16pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Someone saying they want something is not the same as saying it is an inevitability based on a treaty though, is it?

Not at all, we will wait and see though!

Deleted11 04 Nov 19 6.30pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays All valid observations and indeed were discussed back in the early seventies. I think the early Tories like Thatcher, who were pro Europe, thought that they could win the battle of ideas and shape the union away from pooling sovereignty beyond trade and other aspects like increased cooperation on security, universities and so on....stuff no one gets too bothered about. She came to realise however that she was mistaken but unfortunately only after signing a couple of 'ever closer union' treaties. I do see a genuine threat to NATO down the pipe, which are excellent points you make plus a moving away from the US...I can't support either of those directions as particularly wise. Also, while I support Brexit as a very necessary device for the legitimacy of the democratic process....looking at the deal, which is admittedly better than May's it still is pretty poor. We are in so deep with the EU that even Boris's deal still makes us far too fiscally affected if the EU collapses....which does kind of make you scratch your head as too the point......Because personally I don't see the EU as ultimately fiscally solvent. But Brexit is a principle, that said who knows where we will be ten years down the line. Probably on our third vote. Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2019 6.16pm) Very optimistic of you. I think we'll be on our 30th General Election I personally don't see how we can get any deal that is basically no deal, which is probably why Farage is going for it in the GE. Not that I think his motives are pure, but, he knows that losing is a massive win for him and the Brexit Party. Nato is an interesting one, as I see them as Harvey Weinstein's assistants, enablers of the USA's foreign policy, which is Imperialism 2.0. I will add that China is Imperialism 3.0 too. I'm sort of with you when it comes to moving away from the 'special relationship' though. Better to be on their good side.

Deleted11 04 Nov 19 6.30pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

All valid observations and indeed were discussed back in the early seventies.

Also, while I support Brexit as a very necessary device for the legitimacy of the democratic process....looking at the deal, which is admittedly better than May's it still is pretty poor.

We are in so deep with the EU that even Boris's deal still makes us far too fiscally affected if the EU collapses....which does kind of make you scratch your head as too the point......Because personally I don't see the EU as ultimately fiscally solvent.

But Brexit is a principle, that said who knows where we will be ten years down the line.

Probably on our third vote.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Nov 2019 6.16pm)

Very optimistic of you. I think we'll be on our 30th General Election

I personally don't see how we can get any deal that is basically no deal, which is probably why Farage is going for it in the GE. Not that I think his motives are pure, but, he knows that losing is a massive win for him and the Brexit Party.

Nato is an interesting one, as I see them as Harvey Weinstein's assistants, enablers of the USA's foreign policy, which is Imperialism 2.0. I will add that China is Imperialism 3.0 too. I'm sort of with you when it comes to moving away from the 'special relationship' though. Better to be on their good side.

Stirlingsays 04 Nov 19 6.48pm
Originally posted by Jway89 Very optimistic of you. I think we'll be on our 30th General Election I personally don't see how we can get any deal that is basically no deal, which is probably why Farage is going for it in the GE. Not that I think his motives are pure, but, he knows that losing is a massive win for him and the Brexit Party. Nato is an interesting one, as I see them as Harvey Weinstein's assistants, enablers of the USA's foreign policy, which is Imperialism 2.0. I will add that China is Imperialism 3.0 too. I'm sort of with you when it comes to moving away from the 'special relationship' though. Better to be on their good side. Yep, it's going to be interesting to see how Farage and the Brexit party play this....are they really going to risk an actual Brexit because it isn't a proper one? Seems like self harming to me, maybe better to pressurize and then drop out in a week or two. As for the US imperialism point. Essentially I see this as 'nature abhors a vacuum'. Like you state, if it's not the US it's going to be China. The more 'superpowers' you add to the pot the more you ramp up the risk of confrontation....Especially in a world with rapidly increasing populations and finite resources. Those who seek to put wedges between us and the US aren't being rational long term, in my view. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

04 Nov 19 6.48pm

Originally posted by Jway89

Very optimistic of you. I think we'll be on our 30th General Election

Yep, it's going to be interesting to see how Farage and the Brexit party play this....are they really going to risk an actual Brexit because it isn't a proper one?

Seems like self harming to me, maybe better to pressurize and then drop out in a week or two.

As for the US imperialism point. Essentially I see this as 'nature abhors a vacuum'. Like you state, if it's not the US it's going to be China.

The more 'superpowers' you add to the pot the more you ramp up the risk of confrontation....Especially in a world with rapidly increasing populations and finite resources.

Those who seek to put wedges between us and the US aren't being rational long term, in my view.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

corkery Cork City 04 Nov 19 10.55pm
I see the sectarian pacts have returned to Northern Ireland for both sides. We'll never die

corkery

Cork City 04 Nov 19 10.55pm

I see the sectarian pacts have returned to Northern Ireland for both sides.

We'll never die

Rudi Hedman Caterham 04 Nov 19 11.38pm
Farage is now beginning to annoy me when we need to get this done in the hardest brexit we know is possible, which is as hard as Camembert. But then ultimately I remind myself that the effects of EU membership or links to the EU will be limited, apart from now and then or when I hear of more people losing the chance of a decent life because of freedom of movement not long before automation and the financial problems that will bring. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 04 Nov 19 11.38pm

Farage is now beginning to annoy me when we need to get this done in the hardest brexit we know is possible, which is as hard as Camembert. But then ultimately I remind myself that the effects of EU membership or links to the EU will be limited, apart from now and then or when I hear of more people losing the chance of a decent life because of freedom of movement not long before automation and the financial problems that will bring.

COYP

chris123 hove actually 05 Nov 19 6.21am
I'm leave, but quite relaxed that some may have a problem with the withdrawal agreement - it is not possible to please everyone. Messing around just delays the trade deal process, which to me is Brexit.

chris123

hove actually 05 Nov 19 6.21am

I'm leave, but quite relaxed that some may have a problem with the withdrawal agreement - it is not possible to please everyone. Messing around just delays the trade deal process, which to me is Brexit.

steeleye20 Croydon 05 Nov 19 8.58am
Successive Conservative governments have failed to deliver a single new “starter home” despite promising to build 200,000 by 2020, Whitehall’s spending watchdog has found. The party’s 2015 manifesto committed to building the homes across England to be sold exclusively to first-time buyers under the age of 40, to help young people take their first step on the property ladder. The National Audit Office (NAO) said that, to date, no such homes have been built because the government has not budgeted for them or activated all of the necessary legislation. You could do better yourself buying some bricks and windows. Staggering incompetence.

steeleye20

Croydon 05 Nov 19 8.58am

Successive Conservative governments have failed to deliver a single new “starter home” despite promising to build 200,000 by 2020, Whitehall’s spending watchdog has found.

The party’s 2015 manifesto committed to building the homes across England to be sold exclusively to first-time buyers under the age of 40, to help young people take their first step on the property ladder.

The National Audit Office (NAO) said that, to date, no such homes have been built because the government has not budgeted for them or activated all of the necessary legislation.

You could do better yourself buying some bricks and windows.

Staggering incompetence.

Deleted11 05 Nov 19 10.25am
Originally posted by steeleye20 Successive Conservative governments have failed to deliver a single new “starter home” despite promising to build 200,000 by 2020, Whitehall’s spending watchdog has found. The party’s 2015 manifesto committed to building the homes across England to be sold exclusively to first-time buyers under the age of 40, to help young people take their first step on the property ladder. The National Audit Office (NAO) said that, to date, no such homes have been built because the government has not budgeted for them or activated all of the necessary legislation. You could do better yourself buying some bricks and windows. Staggering incompetence. I also remember George Osborne banging on about reducing the deficit. That seemed to go away, surprisingly too. I'm starting to think Mr. Fawkes was onto something

Deleted11 05 Nov 19 10.25am

Originally posted by steeleye20

Successive Conservative governments have failed to deliver a single new “starter home” despite promising to build 200,000 by 2020, Whitehall’s spending watchdog has found.

The National Audit Office (NAO) said that, to date, no such homes have been built because the government has not budgeted for them or activated all of the necessary legislation.

You could do better yourself buying some bricks and windows.

Staggering incompetence.

I also remember George Osborne banging on about reducing the deficit. That seemed to go away, surprisingly too. I'm starting to think Mr. Fawkes was onto something

Midlands Eagle 05 Nov 19 10.51am
The loony Liberal leader made a rather daft comment yesterday when she was complaining that ITV had excluded her from the party leaders debate as she said that young girls needed role models and needed to see that women can become Prime Ministers. Has she forgotten about Theresa May already?

Midlands Eagle

05 Nov 19 10.51am

The loony Liberal leader made a rather daft comment yesterday when she was complaining that ITV had excluded her from the party leaders debate as she said that young girls needed role models and needed to see that women can become Prime Ministers. Has she forgotten about Theresa May already?

cryrst The garden of England 05 Nov 19 11.11am
Originally posted by steeleye20 Successive Conservative governments have failed to deliver a single new “starter home” despite promising to build 200,000 by 2020, Whitehall’s spending watchdog has found. The party’s 2015 manifesto committed to building the homes across England to be sold exclusively to first-time buyers under the age of 40, to help young people take their first step on the property ladder. The National Audit Office (NAO) said that, to date, no such homes have been built because the government has not budgeted for them or activated all of the necessary legislation. You could do better yourself buying some bricks and windows. Staggering incompetence. The budgets are there and they have built some part own part rent on some of the land. A lot of time has been spent on another subject in the HOC. I think incompetence might rear its head slightly higher above the parapet if labour get in.

cryrst

The garden of England 05 Nov 19 11.11am

Originally posted by steeleye20

Successive Conservative governments have failed to deliver a single new “starter home” despite promising to build 200,000 by 2020, Whitehall’s spending watchdog has found.

The National Audit Office (NAO) said that, to date, no such homes have been built because the government has not budgeted for them or activated all of the necessary legislation.

You could do better yourself buying some bricks and windows.

Staggering incompetence.

The budgets are there and they have built some part own part rent on some of the land.
A lot of time has been spent on another subject in the HOC.
I think incompetence might rear its head slightly higher above the parapet if labour get in.

Invalid user 2019 05 Nov 19 11.48am
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Farage is now beginning to annoy me when we need to get this done in the hardest brexit we know is possible, which is as hard as Camembert. But then ultimately I remind myself that the effects of EU membership or links to the EU will be limited, apart from now and then or when I hear of more people losing the chance of a decent life because of freedom of movement not long before automation and the financial problems that will bring. It's a tricky one because it's not much different to the deal from May that was derided for by all of sundry, so in a way I can understand what he's saying and he's right when it comes down to it. Though at the same time, I get the argument that voting for the Brexit may not exactly be helpful in this election. So there's a difficult balance of principle and practicality and I can see both sides of it.

Invalid user 2019

05 Nov 19 11.48am

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

It's a tricky one because it's not much different to the deal from May that was derided for by all of sundry, so in a way I can understand what he's saying and he's right when it comes down to it. Though at the same time, I get the argument that voting for the Brexit may not exactly be helpful in this election. So there's a difficult balance of principle and practicality and I can see both sides of it.

Invalid user 2019 05 Nov 19 11.55am
UPDATE: New @YouGov poll for @thetimes (change on Nov1) CON 38%(-1), LAB 25%(-2), LDEM 16%(nc), BREX 11%(+4)

Invalid user 2019

05 Nov 19 11.55am

UPDATE: New @YouGov poll for @thetimes (change on Nov1)

CON 38%(-1),
LAB 25%(-2),
LDEM 16%(nc),
BREX 11%(+4)

becky over the moon 05 Nov 19 12.10pm
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle The loony Liberal leader made a rather daft comment yesterday when she was complaining that ITV had excluded her from the party leaders debate as she said that young girls needed role models and needed to see that women can become Prime Ministers. Has she forgotten about Theresa May already? .... let alone Margaret Thatcher! Who could forget the Iron Lady - now that's a role model. A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

becky

over the moon 05 Nov 19 12.10pm

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

.... let alone Margaret Thatcher! Who could forget the Iron Lady - now that's a role model.

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

cryrst The garden of England 05 Nov 19 1.25pm
The frustration over certain party politics is that it seems to set out to help the minority. Ie lib dems going on about the 1 in 5 families in poverty. Which if you compare to real poverty isnt but that's IMO. Labour going on about the 'working class' about 1 in 7 Anyhow what about the other 4 in 5 not in 'poverty' Or the other 6 in 7 not working class Dont they count. Policies and changes affect all of us. Not just these groups. The perception seems that if your not in a certain group you dont matter?

cryrst

The garden of England 05 Nov 19 1.25pm

The frustration over certain party politics is that it seems to set out to help the minority.
Ie lib dems going on about the 1 in 5 families in poverty. Which if you compare to real poverty isnt but that's IMO.
Labour going on about the 'working class'
about 1 in 7
Anyhow what about the other 4 in 5 not in 'poverty'
Or the other 6 in 7 not working class
Dont they count. Policies and changes affect all of us.
Not just these groups.
The perception seems that if your not in a certain group you dont matter?

Painter Croydon 05 Nov 19 1.42pm
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle The loony Liberal leader made a rather daft comment yesterday when she was complaining that ITV had excluded her from the party leaders debate as she said that young girls needed role models and needed to see that women can become Prime Ministers. Has she forgotten about Theresa May already? I find the Swinson woman extremely entertaining on the news. The thought of any semblance of power has put her in a delusional state.. Why do the LibDems always seem to attract oddballs?

Painter

Croydon 05 Nov 19 1.42pm

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

I find the Swinson woman extremely entertaining on the news. The thought of any semblance of power has put her in a delusional state.. Why do the LibDems always seem to attract oddballs?

cryrst The garden of England 05 Nov 19 1.47pm
Originally posted by Painter I find the Swinson woman extremely entertaining on the news. The thought of any semblance of power has put her in a delusional state.. Why do the LibDems always seem to attract oddballs? She does have a great pair of milk sacks though.

cryrst

The garden of England 05 Nov 19 1.47pm

Originally posted by Painter

I find the Swinson woman extremely entertaining on the news. The thought of any semblance of power has put her in a delusional state.. Why do the LibDems always seem to attract oddballs?

She does have a great pair of milk sacks though.

CrazyBadger Ware 05 Nov 19 1.52pm
Well, Even with all this reasoned debate, I am still no clearer about who I should vote for! "It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

CrazyBadger

Ware 05 Nov 19 1.52pm

Well, Even with all this reasoned debate, I am still no clearer about who I should vote for!

"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

cryrst The garden of England 05 Nov 19 1.54pm
Originally posted by CrazyBadger Well, Even with all this reasoned debate, I am still no clearer about who I should vote for! Boris. There you go sorted. Glad to be of assistance

cryrst

The garden of England 05 Nov 19 1.54pm

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

Well, Even with all this reasoned debate, I am still no clearer about who I should vote for!

Boris.
There you go sorted.
Glad to be of assistance

Midlands Eagle 05 Nov 19 1.59pm
Originally posted by Painter I find the Swinson woman extremely entertaining on the news. The thought of any semblance of power has put her in a delusional state.. Why do the LibDems always seem to attract oddballs? Her speeches do seem to be more about her becoming Prime Minister than the Liberal Democrats winning election seats. I wonder if perhaps she is related to Mark Clattenburg

Midlands Eagle

05 Nov 19 1.59pm

Originally posted by Painter

I find the Swinson woman extremely entertaining on the news. The thought of any semblance of power has put her in a delusional state.. Why do the LibDems always seem to attract oddballs?

Her speeches do seem to be more about her becoming Prime Minister than the Liberal Democrats winning election seats.

I wonder if perhaps she is related to Mark Clattenburg

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