Topic

This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Page 2287 of 2586 < 2283 2284 2285 2286 2287 2288 2289 2290 2291 >

Topic Locked

Eaglecoops CR3 15 Oct 19 7.25am
Originally posted by dynamicdick This has nothing whatsoever to do withTrump and this is no conspiracy theory. God knows why you are bringing him into it. Your mutterings are akin to David Ike and after reading volumes of what you have written on here I am really beginning to wonder. So let’s get back onto the specifics of your reply to me. Half facts woven with misunderstandings and it’s all wrong plus you won’t bother to dissect my comments, wow that is constructive debating. Everything I have written is as the opening letters states IMO (In My Opinion) and the fact that you have merely broad brushed your reply without going into details merely demonstrates that you aren’t interested in a proper debate. You are clearly a person who has bought into the propaganda of the conspirators believing that blocking Brexit and with it the democratic decision of the 17.4 million is acceptable. It isn’t and thank God we have Boris who is leading the charge to deliver that mandate and by the way the choice was In or Out and nothing about negotiating a deal. Every single MP should have respected the vote and thought about the effects of delay and that is really hurting the people that actually put those goons in the hallowed job they are in. To the plotters stop plotting and support our PM or you will may be drawing the dole once we have a GE, the delay of which is an utter disgrace. And one last thing, if a deal cannot be achieved then the case will harden amongst Leavers for a No Deal as clearly any deal would simply make us a bigger puppet of the EU than we are now. This will then open the door to Mr Farage and as a blocker if you think you see Boris as a problem you ain’t seen nothing yet. Well said. The architects of a poor or no deal are actually the remainers within the government. If they had all got behind a deal from the start and allowed us to hardball the negotiations with Brussels this would all be done and dusted now and we would be well into a new era.
Alert a moderator to this post

Eaglecoops

CR3 15 Oct 19 7.25am

Originally posted by dynamicdick

This has nothing whatsoever to do withTrump and this is no conspiracy theory. God knows why you are bringing him into it. Your mutterings are akin to David Ike and after reading volumes of what you have written on here I am really beginning to wonder. So let’s get back onto the specifics of your reply to me.

Half facts woven with misunderstandings and it’s all wrong plus you won’t bother to dissect my comments, wow that is constructive debating.

Everything I have written is as the opening letters states IMO (In My Opinion) and the fact that you have merely broad brushed your reply without going into details merely demonstrates that you aren’t interested in a proper debate. You are clearly a person who has bought into the propaganda of the conspirators believing that blocking Brexit and with it the democratic decision of the 17.4 million is acceptable. It isn’t and thank God we have Boris who is leading the charge to deliver that mandate and by the way the choice was In or Out and nothing about negotiating a deal.
Every single MP should have respected the vote and thought about the effects of delay and that is really hurting the people that actually put those goons in the hallowed job they are in.
To the plotters stop plotting and support our PM or you will may be drawing the dole once we have a GE, the delay of which is an utter disgrace.

And one last thing, if a deal cannot be achieved then the case will harden amongst Leavers for a No Deal as clearly any deal would simply make us a bigger puppet of the EU than we are now. This will then open the door to Mr Farage and as a blocker if you think you see Boris as a problem you ain’t seen nothing yet.

Well said. The architects of a poor or no deal are actually the remainers within the government. If they had all got behind a deal from the start and allowed us to hardball the negotiations with Brussels this would all be done and dusted now and we would be well into a new era.

Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11 Beckenham 15 Oct 19 7.44am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle The reason was a lack of trust in Johnson who has resolutely said he would bring us out on Oct 31st come what may. So the priority had to be getting the Benn Act passed to stop that before the prorogation took effect. Parliament didn't know it was then going to be declared unlawful, but the fact that it was gives support to their reasons to distrust him. If you examine the timelines you will see that there really hasn't been a clear opportunity to hold a GE and be sure of stopping a "no deal". Remember there have now been two prorogations, a Queen's speech and all the subsequent debates which take up the time. Alongside that we have a divided approach from the various members opposing a "no deal" who need to find a common cause to coalesce around. That now seems to finally be happening but when people are also playing their own political games it isn't easy. I don't let anyone off the hook yet. If they fail to protect us from the nightmare of the present government then there will be some harsh words from me towards whoever is responsible. When Parliament returned most pundits expected Corbyn to call for a vote of no confidence in the government. If Corbyn had done that and defeated the government he and Johnson could have agreed a GE timetable so the Benn act would not have been required. I noticed your condemnation of the Queens's speech is an almost word for word repeat of what Corbyn said yesterday. I think we know where your politics lie. Edited by Badger11 (15 Oct 2019 7.45am) One more point
Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11

Beckenham 15 Oct 19 7.44am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

The reason was a lack of trust in Johnson who has resolutely said he would bring us out on Oct 31st come what may. So the priority had to be getting the Benn Act passed to stop that before the prorogation took effect. Parliament didn't know it was then going to be declared unlawful, but the fact that it was gives support to their reasons to distrust him.

If you examine the timelines you will see that there really hasn't been a clear opportunity to hold a GE and be sure of stopping a "no deal". Remember there have now been two prorogations, a Queen's speech and all the subsequent debates which take up the time.

Alongside that we have a divided approach from the various members opposing a "no deal" who need to find a common cause to coalesce around. That now seems to finally be happening but when people are also playing their own political games it isn't easy.

I don't let anyone off the hook yet. If they fail to protect us from the nightmare of the present government then there will be some harsh words from me towards whoever is responsible.

When Parliament returned most pundits expected Corbyn to call for a vote of no confidence in the government. If Corbyn had done that and defeated the government he and Johnson could have agreed a GE timetable so the Benn act would not have been required.

I noticed your condemnation of the Queens's speech is an almost word for word repeat of what Corbyn said yesterday. I think we know where your politics lie.

Edited by Badger11 (15 Oct 2019 7.45am)

One more point

Alert a moderator to this post

YT Oxford 15 Oct 19 8.13am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Can you really not see the difference? Queen's speeches are held after a GE and set out the planned legislative programme. They aren't held before one when there is a minority government pressing for a GE and with no hope of actually achieving any of their announced programme in the current Parliament. This was blatant opportunism and an insult both to the Queen, to Parliament and to our democratic system. Wrong, I'm afraid. The Queen's Speech is held at the start of each session of parliament. The current queen has delivered around 60 of them. Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)
Alert a moderator to this post

Oxford 15 Oct 19 8.13am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Can you really not see the difference?

Queen's speeches are held after a GE and set out the planned legislative programme. They aren't held before one when there is a minority government pressing for a GE and with no hope of actually achieving any of their announced programme in the current Parliament. This was blatant opportunism and an insult both to the Queen, to Parliament and to our democratic system.

Wrong, I'm afraid. The Queen's Speech is held at the start of each session of parliament. The current queen has delivered around 60 of them.

Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)

Alert a moderator to this post

steeleye20 Croydon 15 Oct 19 8.59am
Originally posted by Badger11 When Parliament returned most pundits expected Corbyn to call for a vote of no confidence in the government. If Corbyn had done that and defeated the government he and Johnson could have agreed a GE timetable so the Benn act would not have been required. I noticed your condemnation of the Queens's speech is an almost word for word repeat of what Corbyn said yesterday. I think we know where your politics lie. Edited by Badger11 (15 Oct 2019 7.45am) The Queen's speech yesterday was an election broadcast for the tory party, they do not have a majority in the HOC and cannot enact that program. If they were to win the next election, then HRHs speech would be relevant, otherwise its just make-believe nonsense. Like the whole spectacle yesterday IMO. Corbyn was exactly right, he didn't say it but I read a poll yesterday with 52% wanting the end of the Monarchy. For once I can see where they are coming from.
Alert a moderator to this post

steeleye20

Croydon 15 Oct 19 8.59am

Originally posted by Badger11

I noticed your condemnation of the Queens's speech is an almost word for word repeat of what Corbyn said yesterday. I think we know where your politics lie.

Edited by Badger11 (15 Oct 2019 7.45am)

The Queen's speech yesterday was an election broadcast for the tory party, they do not have a majority in the HOC and cannot enact that program.

If they were to win the next election, then HRHs speech would be relevant, otherwise its just make-believe nonsense.

Like the whole spectacle yesterday IMO.

Corbyn was exactly right, he didn't say it but I read a poll yesterday with 52% wanting the end of the Monarchy.

For once I can see where they are coming from.

Alert a moderator to this post

dannyboy1978 15 Oct 19 9.10am
Originally posted by steeleye20 The Queen's speech yesterday was an election broadcast for the tory party, they do not have a majority in the HOC and cannot enact that program. If they were to win the next election, then HRHs speech would be relevant, otherwise its just make-believe nonsense. Like the whole spectacle yesterday IMO. Corbyn was exactly right, he didn't say it but I read a poll yesterday with 52% wanting the end of the Monarchy. For once I can see where they are coming from. That's ok then because 48% is more important and gets it's own way!
Alert a moderator to this post

dannyboy1978

15 Oct 19 9.10am

Originally posted by steeleye20

The Queen's speech yesterday was an election broadcast for the tory party, they do not have a majority in the HOC and cannot enact that program.

If they were to win the next election, then HRHs speech would be relevant, otherwise its just make-believe nonsense.

Like the whole spectacle yesterday IMO.

Corbyn was exactly right, he didn't say it but I read a poll yesterday with 52% wanting the end of the Monarchy.

For once I can see where they are coming from.

That's ok then because 48% is more important and gets it's own way!

Alert a moderator to this post

cryrst The garden of England 15 Oct 19 9.51am
Originally posted by dannyboy1978 That's ok then because 48% is more important and gets it's own way! Whoosh
Alert a moderator to this post

cryrst

The garden of England 15 Oct 19 9.51am

Originally posted by dannyboy1978

That's ok then because 48% is more important and gets it's own way!

Whoosh

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 9.59am
Originally posted by dynamicdick This has nothing whatsoever to do withTrump and this is no conspiracy theory. God knows why you are bringing him into it. Your mutterings are akin to David Ike and after reading volumes of what you have written on here I am really beginning to wonder. So let’s get back onto the specifics of your reply to me. Half facts woven with misunderstandings and it’s all wrong plus you won’t bother to dissect my comments, wow that is constructive debating. Everything I have written is as the opening letters states IMO (In My Opinion) and the fact that you have merely broad brushed your reply without going into details merely demonstrates that you aren’t interested in a proper debate. You are clearly a person who has bought into the propaganda of the conspirators believing that blocking Brexit and with it the democratic decision of the 17.4 million is acceptable. It isn’t and thank God we have Boris who is leading the charge to deliver that mandate and by the way the choice was In or Out and nothing about negotiating a deal. Every single MP should have respected the vote and thought about the effects of delay and that is really hurting the people that actually put those goons in the hallowed job they are in. To the plotters stop plotting and support our PM or you will may be drawing the dole once we have a GE, the delay of which is an utter disgrace. And one last thing, if a deal cannot be achieved then the case will harden amongst Leavers for a No Deal as clearly any deal would simply make us a bigger puppet of the EU than we are now. This will then open the door to Mr Farage and as a blocker if you think you see Boris as a problem you ain’t seen nothing yet. The reason I compare this type of conspiracy to those around Trump is that it mirrors the kind of things that have been happening in the USA and is following the populist trend. You even mention "make Britain Great Again" or similar. The reason I haven't dissected it in detail is because it isn't necessary. It's quite sufficient to just state it's all wrong. If you start in the wrong place then everywhere you go tends to be wrong. The wrong place is that there are "conspirators blocking Brexit" and that a "17.4 million vote in a referendum was democratic" and especially that "every MP should have respected the vote". They are just examples but they are all wrong. For instance, MPs are there to exercise their judgement on what we need. As I have said many times here we don't send them to Parliament as delegates to carry out the instructions we have given them in a referendum. They are our representatives who decide for themselves what is needed. They triggered Article 50 and have since been trying to find a way they can all accept to actually exit the EU. They have done, and are doing, the job we pay them to do. Which is not to "support the PM". Johnson leads a minority government. He is not a dictator. Parliament is his boss, not his servant. I fully expect the ultra Brexiteers to "harden" their position and moan and groan even more than they have so far about the unfairness of Parliamentary democracy, the rule of law and how it has stopped them getting their own way. Farage and his kind are the reason we are all in this mess in the first place but eventually they will be consigned to the history books, alongside people like Moseley and Powell, as noisy but ultimately insignificant figures in our political life. Then we can resume our steady progress towards the inclusive, fair and free society that we have gradually been evolving. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 9.59am

Originally posted by dynamicdick

Half facts woven with misunderstandings and it’s all wrong plus you won’t bother to dissect my comments, wow that is constructive debating.

The reason I compare this type of conspiracy to those around Trump is that it mirrors the kind of things that have been happening in the USA and is following the populist trend. You even mention "make Britain Great Again" or similar. The reason I haven't dissected it in detail is because it isn't necessary. It's quite sufficient to just state it's all wrong. If you start in the wrong place then everywhere you go tends to be wrong. The wrong place is that there are "conspirators blocking Brexit" and that a "17.4 million vote in a referendum was democratic" and especially that "every MP should have respected the vote". They are just examples but they are all wrong. For instance, MPs are there to exercise their judgement on what we need. As I have said many times here we don't send them to Parliament as delegates to carry out the instructions we have given them in a referendum. They are our representatives who decide for themselves what is needed. They triggered Article 50 and have since been trying to find a way they can all accept to actually exit the EU. They have done, and are doing, the job we pay them to do. Which is not to "support the PM". Johnson leads a minority government. He is not a dictator. Parliament is his boss, not his servant.

I fully expect the ultra Brexiteers to "harden" their position and moan and groan even more than they have so far about the unfairness of Parliamentary democracy, the rule of law and how it has stopped them getting their own way. Farage and his kind are the reason we are all in this mess in the first place but eventually they will be consigned to the history books, alongside people like Moseley and Powell, as noisy but ultimately insignificant figures in our political life. Then we can resume our steady progress towards the inclusive, fair and free society that we have gradually been evolving.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.08am
Originally posted by dannyboy1978 You agree the IMF, previous chancellors, bank of England have got things wrong in the past? We can add to that the cost of cross rail, Heathrow, Wembley, HS2, all budgeted wrong. Kenneth Clarke even wanted us to go in the euro, why would I listne to him! Blair lied So can't trust him and Gordon Browns slogan, no more boom and bust, won't trust him. SO the population took their experience not to Listne to liars and so called experts to vote leave which more importantly was democracy. Edited by dannyboy1978 (15 Oct 2019 3.17am) Edited by dannyboy1978 (15 Oct 2019 3.19am) What on earth are you talking about? Forecasts and opinions can be wrong, but that doesn't mean they are guesses. Nor does it mean that when politicians make campaign pledges that they are necessarily based on forecasts. Just as Johnson did yesterday they are much more often just wish lists offered as carrots to donkeys. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (15 Oct 2019 10.21am) For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.08am

Originally posted by dannyboy1978

You agree the IMF, previous chancellors, bank of England have got things wrong in the past?

We can add to that the cost of cross rail, Heathrow, Wembley, HS2, all budgeted wrong.

Kenneth Clarke even wanted us to go in the euro, why would I listne to him! Blair lied
So can't trust him and Gordon Browns slogan, no more boom and bust, won't trust him.

SO the population took their experience not to
Listne to liars and so called experts to vote leave which more importantly was democracy.

Edited by dannyboy1978 (15 Oct 2019 3.17am)

Edited by dannyboy1978 (15 Oct 2019 3.19am)

What on earth are you talking about?

Forecasts and opinions can be wrong, but that doesn't mean they are guesses.

Nor does it mean that when politicians make campaign pledges that they are necessarily based on forecasts. Just as Johnson did yesterday they are much more often just wish lists offered as carrots to donkeys.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (15 Oct 2019 10.21am)

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.14am
Originally posted by becky If all votes in the House were secret, and not recorded for public access, how would any of us know what stance our MP took on matters of importance to us, so we could assess at the next election whether or not he is serving what we see as our best interests or what he/she regards as best for their constituents? How would we then know who to vote for? You wouldn't. You would have to decide on character and what they have done for you locally. How they have behaved and what arguments they make for and against things. As I have said many times they are representatives and not delegates. Your own vote is secret. You decide that for yourself and no-one has any right to know it. The same should apply to an MP, who should be free of all pressures to use only their best judgement and conscience to decide what is the best course of action. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.14am

Originally posted by becky

If all votes in the House were secret, and not recorded for public access, how would any of us know what stance our MP took on matters of importance to us, so we could assess at the next election whether or not he is serving what we see as our best interests or what he/she regards as best for their constituents? How would we then know who to vote for?

You wouldn't. You would have to decide on character and what they have done for you locally. How they have behaved and what arguments they make for and against things. As I have said many times they are representatives and not delegates.

Your own vote is secret. You decide that for yourself and no-one has any right to know it. The same should apply to an MP, who should be free of all pressures to use only their best judgement and conscience to decide what is the best course of action.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.17am
Originally posted by cryrst Put prediction in your search bar and that's the definition. It returns "forecast". For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.17am

Originally posted by cryrst

Put prediction in your search bar and that's the definition.

It returns "forecast".

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.25am
Originally posted by YT Wrong, I'm afraid. The Queen's Speech is held at the start of each session of parliament. The current queen has delivered around 60 of them. Of course but not by a minority government which is pressing for a GE. This was a blatant political manoeuvre which took advantage of the Queen. I bet she is "not pleased". For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.25am

Originally posted by YT

Wrong, I'm afraid. The Queen's Speech is held at the start of each session of parliament. The current queen has delivered around 60 of them.

Of course but not by a minority government which is pressing for a GE. This was a blatant political manoeuvre which took advantage of the Queen. I bet she is "not pleased".

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.30am
Originally posted by Badger11 When Parliament returned most pundits expected Corbyn to call for a vote of no confidence in the government. If Corbyn had done that and defeated the government he and Johnson could have agreed a GE timetable so the Benn act would not have been required. I noticed your condemnation of the Queens's speech is an almost word for word repeat of what Corbyn said yesterday. I think we know where your politics lie. Edited by Badger11 (15 Oct 2019 7.45am) Untrue. Many people were sceptical of the timing and suggesting that nothing was certain. Corbyn himself needed some convincing but that's because he isn't always a clear strategic thinker. If there is any similarity in what I said and what Corbyn did then it is either purely co-incidental or 100% true. I didn't copy him and I doubt if he reads the HOL. So you decide. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 15 Oct 19 10.30am

Originally posted by Badger11

I noticed your condemnation of the Queens's speech is an almost word for word repeat of what Corbyn said yesterday. I think we know where your politics lie.

Edited by Badger11 (15 Oct 2019 7.45am)

Untrue. Many people were sceptical of the timing and suggesting that nothing was certain. Corbyn himself needed some convincing but that's because he isn't always a clear strategic thinker.

If there is any similarity in what I said and what Corbyn did then it is either purely co-incidental or 100% true. I didn't copy him and I doubt if he reads the HOL. So you decide.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Topic Locked

Page 2287 of 2586 < 2283 2284 2285 2286 2287 2288 2289 2290 2291 >

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Crystal Palace FC Supporters' Website - The Holmesdale Online

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

Site Map

New users

Existing users

Sponsors