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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Oct 16 9.49am
Originally posted by dannyh Sorry kerm old fruit that is the biggest load of sensationalist buffoonery I have ever read on these boards, and I include some of the absolute drivel written in Palace Talk !! We catorgorically will not lose access to the EU Market as to bar us would mean the EU would almost certainly collapse without our imports from it. higher prices for food stuffs ? honestly where do you get this drivel have you been reading comrade Gussett's links again ? Lost tax revenues ? name me one Giant of commerce whose decided to leave the UK because of the EU vote. ? Again more biased nonsense masquerading as fact. Less Security ( a subject close to my heart as you well know) we will remain as we have for years one of the major players in NATO, Brexit has nowt to do with that, as for our security services suffering because of Brexit ??? Ask yourself this when was the last large scale terror attack on the mainland ? Then compare that time scale to continental Europe. We are light years ahead of our EU cousins in counter intelligence as we have been dealing with it successfully since the 60's. Brexit affecting Pollution in our seas and rivers ? are you actually smoking bath salts. Sorry Buddy but your entire post is anti Brexit hogwash Bit of a side note, but its NATO really all that significant in terms of security of the UK anyhow. The UK is a major part of NATO but I've never really seen it as part of UK security but something that's more about European security, to which the UK contributes. In terms of counter-intelligence and anti-terrorism - The UK is not only well ahead of Europe, its more or less the bench mark. Probably only the Germans come close (domestically very good, internationally less so). The UK is exceptionally good, not so much at 'obtaining intelligence' but at how its distributed throughout the UK security services. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Oct 16 9.49am

Originally posted by dannyh

Sorry kerm old fruit that is the biggest load of sensationalist buffoonery I have ever read on these boards, and I include some of the absolute drivel written in Palace Talk !!

We catorgorically will not lose access to the EU Market as to bar us would mean the EU would almost certainly collapse without our imports from it.

higher prices for food stuffs ? honestly where do you get this drivel have you been reading comrade Gussett's links again ?

Lost tax revenues ? name me one Giant of commerce whose decided to leave the UK because of the EU vote. ? Again more biased nonsense masquerading as fact.

Less Security ( a subject close to my heart as you well know) we will remain as we have for years one of the major players in NATO, Brexit has nowt to do with that, as for our security services suffering because of Brexit ??? Ask yourself this when was the last large scale terror attack on the mainland ? Then compare that time scale to continental Europe. We are light years ahead of our EU cousins in counter intelligence as we have been dealing with it successfully since the 60's.

Brexit affecting Pollution in our seas and rivers ? are you actually smoking bath salts.

Sorry Buddy but your entire post is anti Brexit hogwash

Bit of a side note, but its NATO really all that significant in terms of security of the UK anyhow. The UK is a major part of NATO but I've never really seen it as part of UK security but something that's more about European security, to which the UK contributes.

In terms of counter-intelligence and anti-terrorism - The UK is not only well ahead of Europe, its more or less the bench mark. Probably only the Germans come close (domestically very good, internationally less so). The UK is exceptionally good, not so much at 'obtaining intelligence' but at how its distributed throughout the UK security services.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

carlonoil Naples 27 Oct 16 10.00am
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 It doesn't really matter whether the UK voted for Remain or Exit from the EU. What really matters is how we manage that, and project the future for the UK from that exit. An exit will have some pretty serious implications, but there may very well be some significant benefits. It all really depends on what you consider 'implications' and 'benefits'. Stay or leave is relatively meaningless. It is not meaningless at all. We cannot manage the country in our own interests while being a member of the EU.

carlonoil

Naples 27 Oct 16 10.00am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

It doesn't really matter whether the UK voted for Remain or Exit from the EU.

What really matters is how we manage that, and project the future for the UK from that exit. An exit will have some pretty serious implications, but there may very well be some significant benefits.

It all really depends on what you consider 'implications' and 'benefits'.

Stay or leave is relatively meaningless.

It is not meaningless at all. We cannot manage the country in our own interests while being a member of the EU.

carlonoil Naples 27 Oct 16 11.36am
Nissan just announced they will build two new models in Sunderland - I blame Brexit.

carlonoil

Naples 27 Oct 16 11.36am

Nissan just announced they will build two new models in Sunderland - I blame Brexit.

Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 12.23pm
Originally posted by carlonoil Nissan just announced they will build two new models in Sunderland - I blame Brexit. "Carlos Ghosn, Nissan chief executive, said government "support and assurances" allowed it to decide to make the two new cars in Sunderland" You MIGHT be right on the other hand the devil is in the detail. Perhaps we are now subsidizing them to do something where we didn't need to before

Sedlescombe

Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 12.23pm

Originally posted by carlonoil

Nissan just announced they will build two new models in Sunderland - I blame Brexit.

"Carlos Ghosn, Nissan chief executive, said government "support and assurances" allowed it to decide to make the two new cars in Sunderland"

You MIGHT be right on the other hand the devil is in the detail. Perhaps we are now subsidizing them to do something where we didn't need to before

Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 12.26pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Bit of a side note, but its NATO really all that significant in terms of security of the UK anyhow. The UK is a major part of NATO but I've never really seen it as part of UK security but something that's more about European security, to which the UK contributes. In terms of counter-intelligence and anti-terrorism - The UK is not only well ahead of Europe, its more or less the bench mark. Probably only the Germans come close (domestically very good, internationally less so). The UK is exceptionally good, not so much at 'obtaining intelligence' but at how its distributed throughout the UK security services. Depends whether you are hapy for Putin to re-form the Soviet Union by "taking back" the Baltic States. Where might his appetite take him then?

Sedlescombe

Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 12.26pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Bit of a side note, but its NATO really all that significant in terms of security of the UK anyhow. The UK is a major part of NATO but I've never really seen it as part of UK security but something that's more about European security, to which the UK contributes.

Depends whether you are hapy for Putin to re-form the Soviet Union by "taking back" the Baltic States. Where might his appetite take him then?

Oliver Bodega Bay 27 Oct 16 1.41pm
Originally posted by Sedlescombe "Carlos Ghosn, Nissan chief executive, said government "support and assurances" allowed it to decide to make the two new cars in Sunderland" You MIGHT be right on the other hand the devil is in the detail. Perhaps we are now subsidizing them to do something where we didn't need to before What are these support and assurances. The UK tax payer to compensate Nissan if the EU imposes tariffs on car imports? I have prepared one of my own time capsules. I have placed some rather large samples of dynamite, gunpowder and nitroglycerin. My time capsule is set to go off in the year 3000. It will show them what we are really like.

Oliver

Bodega Bay 27 Oct 16 1.41pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

"Carlos Ghosn, Nissan chief executive, said government "support and assurances" allowed it to decide to make the two new cars in Sunderland"

You MIGHT be right on the other hand the devil is in the detail. Perhaps we are now subsidizing them to do something where we didn't need to before

What are these support and assurances.

The UK tax payer to compensate Nissan if the EU imposes tariffs on car imports?

I have prepared one of my own time capsules. I have placed some rather large samples of dynamite, gunpowder and nitroglycerin. My time capsule is set to go off in the year 3000. It will show them what we are really like.

Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 1.55pm
Originally posted by Oliver What are these support and assurances. The UK tax payer to compensate Nissan if the EU imposes tariffs on car imports? As I recall - and this is off the top of my head - Nissan announced a freeze on investment in Sunderland (and a number of other international companies have done the same) because of uncertainty over Brexit including a concern over freedom of movement - a ban on which they regard as bad for them - and also they wanted guarantees over the increased costs of tariffs (especially as the trio leading negotiations (Davis Johnson and Fox) favour Hard Brexit which would involve trade on WTO terms which allows tariffs. Suddenly Nissan are happy so they have clearly heard something that removes or mitigates their above concerns. Perhaps leaving the EU means we have taken back control to subsidize profitable Japanese companies but we would need the detail to know. British companies might be wondering what they need to do to get help. Will it just be Japanese car firms and US banks that get to be protected from Brexit

Sedlescombe

Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 1.55pm

Originally posted by Oliver

What are these support and assurances.

The UK tax payer to compensate Nissan if the EU imposes tariffs on car imports?

As I recall - and this is off the top of my head - Nissan announced a freeze on investment in Sunderland (and a number of other international companies have done the same) because of uncertainty over Brexit including a concern over freedom of movement - a ban on which they regard as bad for them - and also they wanted guarantees over the increased costs of tariffs (especially as the trio leading negotiations (Davis Johnson and Fox) favour Hard Brexit which would involve trade on WTO terms which allows tariffs.

Suddenly Nissan are happy so they have clearly heard something that removes or mitigates their above concerns. Perhaps leaving the EU means we have taken back control to subsidize profitable Japanese companies but we would need the detail to know. British companies might be wondering what they need to do to get help. Will it just be Japanese car firms and US banks that get to be protected from Brexit

Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 1.56pm
Originally posted by Sedlescombe As I recall - and this is off the top of my head - Nissan announced a freeze on investment in Sunderland (and a number of other international companies have done the same) because of uncertainty over Brexit including a concern over freedom of movement - a ban on which they regard as bad for them - and also they wanted guarantees over the increased costs of tariffs (especially as the trio leading negotiations (Davis Johnson and Fox) favour Hard Brexit which would involve trade on WTO terms which allows tariffs. Suddenly Nissan are happy so they have clearly heard something that removes or mitigates their above concerns. Perhaps leaving the EU means we have taken back control to subsidize profitable Japanese companies but we would need the detail to know. British companies might be wondering what they need to do to get help. Will it just be Japanese car firms and US banks that get to be protected from Brexit

Sedlescombe

Sedlescombe 27 Oct 16 1.56pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

chris123 hove actually 27 Oct 16 2.39pm
Originally posted by Sedlescombe S Slashing corporation tax post Brexit?

chris123

hove actually 27 Oct 16 2.39pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

Slashing corporation tax post Brexit?

carlonoil Naples 27 Oct 16 3.06pm
Originally posted by Sedlescombe As I recall - and this is off the top of my head - Nissan announced a freeze on investment in Sunderland (and a number of other international companies have done the same) because of uncertainty over Brexit including a concern over freedom of movement - a ban on which they regard as bad for them - and also they wanted guarantees over the increased costs of tariffs (especially as the trio leading negotiations (Davis Johnson and Fox) favour Hard Brexit which would involve trade on WTO terms which allows tariffs. Suddenly Nissan are happy so they have clearly heard something that removes or mitigates their above concerns. Perhaps leaving the EU means we have taken back control to subsidize profitable Japanese companies but we would need the detail to know. British companies might be wondering what they need to do to get help. Will it just be Japanese car firms and US banks that get to be protected from Brexit Clearly! Really? In your imagination maybe.

carlonoil

Naples 27 Oct 16 3.06pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

Suddenly Nissan are happy so they have clearly heard something that removes or mitigates their above concerns. Perhaps leaving the EU means we have taken back control to subsidize profitable Japanese companies but we would need the detail to know. British companies might be wondering what they need to do to get help. Will it just be Japanese car firms and US banks that get to be protected from Brexit

Clearly! Really? In your imagination maybe.

ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 27 Oct 16 3.13pm
Since the pound has devalued so much it has made it much cheaper for me to go to Palace this weekend. So thanks, Brexiteers. Red and Blue Army!

ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 27 Oct 16 3.13pm

Since the pound has devalued so much it has made it much cheaper for me to go to Palace this weekend. So thanks, Brexiteers.

Red and Blue Army!

dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 27 Oct 16 3.34pm
Originally posted by carlonoil Creary! Rearry? In your imagination maybe. edited for cheap laughs. "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 27 Oct 16 3.34pm

Originally posted by carlonoil

Creary! Rearry? In your imagination maybe.

edited for cheap laughs.

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Oct 16 4.35pm
Originally posted by Sedlescombe Depends whether you are hapy for Putin to re-form the Soviet Union by "taking back" the Baltic States. Where might his appetite take him then? Which doesn't affect UK sovereignty or security. Nor did it really help the Ukraine. Neither will NATO act militarily to stop the Russians if they did. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Oct 16 4.35pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

Depends whether you are hapy for Putin to re-form the Soviet Union by "taking back" the Baltic States. Where might his appetite take him then?

Which doesn't affect UK sovereignty or security. Nor did it really help the Ukraine. Neither will NATO act militarily to stop the Russians if they did.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Oct 16 4.42pm
Originally posted by carlonoil It is not meaningless at all. We cannot manage the country in our own interests while being a member of the EU. Provided you assume that the Interests of the EU, and the interests of the UK are not aligned, and that the EU does not consist of representation from the UK, which it does (and selected on a basis of proportional representation, which is arguably far more democratic than UK democracy). Also of course the capacity of the EU to actually pass policy on the UK outside of issues of trade, without the UK's permission and involvement is also fairly negligible, to non-existent. As for the issue of trade decisions, the UK is a voluntary member. The issue of 'UK being ruled from Brussels' is massively overstated by euro-skeptics, and really not an issue worth the referendum, far bigger and relevant issues, notably around economic migration and UK working classes wage demands were always more significant. Remember, when it comes to EU policy, the government you voted in, actually agreed to the policy, as did your representatives in the European Parliament. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Oct 16 4.42pm

Originally posted by carlonoil

It is not meaningless at all. We cannot manage the country in our own interests while being a member of the EU.

Provided you assume that the Interests of the EU, and the interests of the UK are not aligned, and that the EU does not consist of representation from the UK, which it does (and selected on a basis of proportional representation, which is arguably far more democratic than UK democracy).

Also of course the capacity of the EU to actually pass policy on the UK outside of issues of trade, without the UK's permission and involvement is also fairly negligible, to non-existent. As for the issue of trade decisions, the UK is a voluntary member.

The issue of 'UK being ruled from Brussels' is massively overstated by euro-skeptics, and really not an issue worth the referendum, far bigger and relevant issues, notably around economic migration and UK working classes wage demands were always more significant.

Remember, when it comes to EU policy, the government you voted in, actually agreed to the policy, as did your representatives in the European Parliament.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Oct 16 4.45pm
Originally posted by carlonoil Nissan just announced they will build two new models in Sunderland - I blame Brexit. Personally, if I lived in Sunderland, I'd have been taking advantage of the Freedom of Movement to literally work and live anywhere else. Seriously, why the fk anyone, given the legal right to live and work anywhere in the EU, would stick to Sunderland or Burnley is completely beyond me. Even the fking homeless in Sunderland move to Newcastle at the first opportunity! "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Oct 16 4.45pm

Originally posted by carlonoil

Nissan just announced they will build two new models in Sunderland - I blame Brexit.

Personally, if I lived in Sunderland, I'd have been taking advantage of the Freedom of Movement to literally work and live anywhere else.

Seriously, why the f**k anyone, given the legal right to live and work anywhere in the EU, would stick to Sunderland or Burnley is completely beyond me. Even the f**king homeless in Sunderland move to Newcastle at the first opportunity!

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

carlonoil Naples 27 Oct 16 4.55pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Provided you assume that the Interests of the EU, and the interests of the UK are not aligned, and that the EU does not consist of representation from the UK, which it does (and selected on a basis of proportional representation, which is arguably far more democratic than UK democracy). Also of course the capacity of the EU to actually pass policy on the UK outside of issues of trade, without the UK's permission and involvement is also fairly negligible, to non-existent. As for the issue of trade decisions, the UK is a voluntary member. The issue of 'UK being ruled from Brussels' is massively overstated by euro-skeptics, and really not an issue worth the referendum, far bigger and relevant issues, notably around economic migration and UK working classes wage demands were always more significant. Remember, when it comes to EU policy, the government you voted in, actually agreed to the policy, as did your representatives in the European Parliament. Of course 27 other countries interests are not 'aligned with ours'. Most of our EU representatives are in UKIP and they do not 'agree with EU policy'. The aim of the EU is a United States of Europe so of course their power over member states is significant. The result of the referendum should not be a surprise as time and again we have returned UKIP MEPs in EU elections.

carlonoil

Naples 27 Oct 16 4.55pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Remember, when it comes to EU policy, the government you voted in, actually agreed to the policy, as did your representatives in the European Parliament.

Of course 27 other countries interests are not 'aligned with ours'. Most of our EU representatives are in UKIP and they do not 'agree with EU policy'. The aim of the EU is a United States of Europe so of course their power over member states is significant. The result of the referendum should not be a surprise as time and again we have returned UKIP MEPs in EU elections.

Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 28 Oct 16 8.06am
Originally posted by carlonoil Clearly! Really? In your imagination maybe. No in their wallet. Nissan are saying they have received "support and assurances" though at least we now know why there is no money of the NHS.

Sedlescombe

Sedlescombe 28 Oct 16 8.06am

Originally posted by carlonoil

Clearly! Really? In your imagination maybe.

No in their wallet. Nissan are saying they have received "support and assurances" though at least we now know why there is no money of the NHS.

Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 28 Oct 16 8.15am
Originally posted by Sedlescombe No in their wallet. Nissan are saying they have received "support and assurances" though at least we now know why there is no money of the NHS. Until you know for certain the nature of the 'support and assurances', that can only be speculation on your part. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 28 Oct 16 8.15am

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

No in their wallet. Nissan are saying they have received "support and assurances" though at least we now know why there is no money of the NHS.

Until you know for certain the nature of the 'support and assurances', that can only be speculation on your part.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

jamiemartin721 Reading 28 Oct 16 9.45am
Originally posted by carlonoil Of course 27 other countries interests are not 'aligned with ours'. Most of our EU representatives are in UKIP and they do not 'agree with EU policy'. The aim of the EU is a United States of Europe so of course their power over member states is significant. The result of the referendum should not be a surprise as time and again we have returned UKIP MEPs in EU elections. So that would also apply to the UK, which is 4 different countries. We're a member state (rightly or wrongly) through legal democratic means and engagement with the EU. You could go down to county level, or regions. The problems of the EU have always been its 'quasi-federation' approach - but in reality it has made virtually no laws that the UK parliament hasn't then ratified before the electorate, to which UK parliament answers. Granted as a partner in an organisation, you submit to accepting that other members may have divergent views, and resolve those democratically (in the EU). This whole us vs Europe is a odd perception, because the views of those other 27 countries aren't anti-UK, their own self interest, the same as ours (except we have a veto). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 28 Oct 16 9.45am

Originally posted by carlonoil

So that would also apply to the UK, which is 4 different countries. We're a member state (rightly or wrongly) through legal democratic means and engagement with the EU. You could go down to county level, or regions.

The problems of the EU have always been its 'quasi-federation' approach - but in reality it has made virtually no laws that the UK parliament hasn't then ratified before the electorate, to which UK parliament answers.

Granted as a partner in an organisation, you submit to accepting that other members may have divergent views, and resolve those democratically (in the EU). This whole us vs Europe is a odd perception, because the views of those other 27 countries aren't anti-UK, their own self interest, the same as ours (except we have a veto).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

jamiemartin721 Reading 28 Oct 16 9.49am
Originally posted by Oliver What are these support and assurances. The UK tax payer to compensate Nissan if the EU imposes tariffs on car imports? I'm not really opposed to a government policy of incentives to create employment and real jobs in a area of low employment, and high social deprivation. Its what the Conservatives of the 80s failed to do - focus on replacement of real jobs into areas where industry was dying out, even if that means subsidising third parties with tax payers money (and ideally raising taxation on the new profit areas such as the housing market) to pay for that subsidisation. I may never vote Conservative - but creating real skilled jobs rather than McJobs is key to the functionality of the UK. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 28 Oct 16 9.49am

Originally posted by Oliver

What are these support and assurances.

The UK tax payer to compensate Nissan if the EU imposes tariffs on car imports?

I'm not really opposed to a government policy of incentives to create employment and real jobs in a area of low employment, and high social deprivation.

Its what the Conservatives of the 80s failed to do - focus on replacement of real jobs into areas where industry was dying out, even if that means subsidising third parties with tax payers money (and ideally raising taxation on the new profit areas such as the housing market) to pay for that subsidisation.

I may never vote Conservative - but creating real skilled jobs rather than McJobs is key to the functionality of the UK.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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